Re: [Maria-discuss] MySQL Workbench Fork?
Well, clicking around, selecting things, switching to keyboards, and so on, can hardly be faster than writing an SQL statement - provided that you learn ALTER TABLE syntax. But, apart from that, I think that we mostly agree on everything except one thing: the meaning of enterprise. In an enterprise environment a DBA needs to automate everything and write scripts. Also, as I wrote before and the author of that post also says, GUI's are not reliable, you never know exactly what they do. That said, I suppose that GUIs can be useful for someone, especially for developers and hobbyists. Cheers, Federico -------------------------------------------- Gio 27/4/17, <info@smallbusinessconsultingexperts.com> ha scritto: Oggetto: Re: [Maria-discuss] MySQL Workbench Fork? A: maria-discuss@lists.launchpad.net, "Federico Razzoli" <federico_raz@yahoo.it> Data: Giovedì 27 Aprile 2017, 20:34 Sure, but don't confuse a post with a fact either. That's great he has an opinion that you share, I am sure I can find many more that say the opposite. What I got from his post is there are some things a gui cannot do, which is of course the case. So? The opposite is true also, if you add the word quickly. That does not make a point as universal true or factual. Should we abandon SNMP and other standards type network consoles (gui) since obviously we can do the same thing without them? You don't see the value is the gui network view? So, workbench feature of showing you a refreshing graphical status of your server isn't useful? It's not complete by any means, but it is useful, just like the connections screen showing running queries. Those are just examples which some will desire to pick on. But I think it's a reasonable view. My point is not guis are (always) better, they each have a place. On Apr 27, 2017, 1:23 PM -0500, Federico Razzoli <federico_raz@yahoo.it>, wrote: I've just seen this Quora answer, which lists some good reasons to avoid GUIs. There are others. Again: my point is not "GUI's shouldn't exist", it's just "please don't call them an enterprise software, because they are not". https://www.quora.com/Do-database-administrators-actually-think-that-GUIs-ar...
On Apr 27, 2017, at 3:05 PM, Federico Razzoli <federico_raz@yahoo.it> wrote:
Well, clicking around, selecting things, switching to keyboards, and so on, can hardly be faster than writing an SQL statement - provided that you learn ALTER TABLE syntax.
But, apart from that, I think that we mostly agree on everything except one thing: the meaning of enterprise. In an enterprise environment a DBA needs to automate everything and write scripts. Also, as I wrote before and the author of that post also says, GUI's are not reliable, you never know exactly what they do.
That said, I suppose that GUIs can be useful for someone, especially for developers and hobbyists.
As far as the meaning of enterprise environment, look here: http://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia/term/42642/enterprise-environment <http://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia/term/42642/enterprise-environment> I see no statement about writing scripts. If a DBA could truly “automate everything” as you state, them, they would be out of a job! :-) A DBA should use whatever tools are necessary and efficient for their job and for problem solving, period. If that’s a monitoring tool, then, use it. If that’s a command script, use it. I can give many examples of things faster in a GUI, but, it’s not necessary here. I was merely agreeing that it would be nice, as the OP posited. And you were disagreeing. I understand you could come up with examples faster in command line or scripts and I would agree with your examples, and I could come up with things faster in the gui. A gui is not just clicking. It can be used in the manner you are disagreeing with (to replace knowledge of alter table at a simplistic level), but it can also be used in many productive ways. They were used even in a fortune 10 company I used to work for. Even Oracle gives you one (not speaking of MySQL). I also count SNMP and other interfaces as GUIs as that is often the end point for their output. Such consoles are certainly guis and are very useful for seeing an enterprise wide view of how things are running. When you have hundreds of sites, kind of nice for a high level view with drill down. I do get what you are saying, however, there are better uses for guis than your examples. And I would certainly never advocate *only* using a gui, of course not. I would only hope for an enhanced (to provided better tools) workbench. And I do agree they are useful for “developers and hobbyists”, to which I would add potentially hundreds of thousands of small business owners, which are wannabe developers and not quite hobbyists as many make a living off of open source software and databases they are using. In that sense, the market for gui users could be much larger than non gui users. Which of course is getting closer to your statement about enterprise. I guess I will agree to disagree as there are so many flaws in what the article stated, each and every statement and conclusion is flawed. It’s not a good example! Maybe we do agree more than I initially thought.
I'm really surprised by the pushback against a MariaDB Workbench.
Well, clicking around, selecting things, switching to keyboards, and so on, can hardly be faster than writing an SQL statement - provided that you learn ALTER TABLE syntax.
The CLI is *always* faster, but I can't remember the alter table syntax because my head is full of JavaScript frameworks.
But, apart from that, I think that we mostly agree on everything except one thing: the meaning of enterprise. In an enterprise environment a DBA needs to automate everything and write scripts. Also, as I wrote before and the author of that post also says, GUI's are not reliable, you never know exactly what they do.
This is why I sent my plea: MariaDB developers are all DBAs who are only focused on fixing problems for other DBAs. Letting Workbench rot will forever place MariaDB as a second-class DB that can't compete for mindshare.
That said, I suppose that GUIs can be useful for someone, especially for developers and hobbyists.
This is so arrogant it's crazy! Developers are what drives growth: MySQL got a huge boost thanks to phpMySQL and Workbench. NoSQL took off because there was a built in REST API, native support for objects, decent search, etc, etc. A lot of relational devs make fun of map/reduce as a crappy index, but it allows the single source of truth to make *arbitrary* transforms. Yes, it *sucks* when you have to beat a newbie into normalization submission, but MariaDB doesn't even optimize view queries. SQL database could grow into an awesome onramp for the right way of doing things, but MariaDB is letting its only decent UI atrophy. Thank you, -Zach Lym On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 1:35 PM, Sales <info@smallbusinessconsultingexperts.com> wrote:
On Apr 27, 2017, at 3:05 PM, Federico Razzoli <federico_raz@yahoo.it> wrote:
Well, clicking around, selecting things, switching to keyboards, and so on, can hardly be faster than writing an SQL statement - provided that you learn ALTER TABLE syntax.
But, apart from that, I think that we mostly agree on everything except one thing: the meaning of enterprise. In an enterprise environment a DBA needs to automate everything and write scripts. Also, as I wrote before and the author of that post also says, GUI's are not reliable, you never know exactly what they do.
That said, I suppose that GUIs can be useful for someone, especially for developers and hobbyists.
As far as the meaning of enterprise environment, look here:
http://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia/term/42642/enterprise-environment
I see no statement about writing scripts. If a DBA could truly “automate everything” as you state, them, they would be out of a job! :-) A DBA should use whatever tools are necessary and efficient for their job and for problem solving, period. If that’s a monitoring tool, then, use it. If that’s a command script, use it. I can give many examples of things faster in a GUI, but, it’s not necessary here. I was merely agreeing that it would be nice, as the OP posited. And you were disagreeing. I understand you could come up with examples faster in command line or scripts and I would agree with your examples, and I could come up with things faster in the gui. A gui is not just clicking. It can be used in the manner you are disagreeing with (to replace knowledge of alter table at a simplistic level), but it can also be used in many productive ways. They were used even in a fortune 10 company I used to work for. Even Oracle gives you one (not speaking of MySQL). I also count SNMP and other interfaces as GUIs as that is often the end point for their output. Such consoles are certainly guis and are very useful for seeing an enterprise wide view of how things are running. When you have hundreds of sites, kind of nice for a high level view with drill down.
I do get what you are saying, however, there are better uses for guis than your examples. And I would certainly never advocate *only* using a gui, of course not. I would only hope for an enhanced (to provided better tools) workbench. And I do agree they are useful for “developers and hobbyists”, to which I would add potentially hundreds of thousands of small business owners, which are wannabe developers and not quite hobbyists as many make a living off of open source software and databases they are using. In that sense, the market for gui users could be much larger than non gui users. Which of course is getting closer to your statement about enterprise.
I guess I will agree to disagree as there are so many flaws in what the article stated, each and every statement and conclusion is flawed. It’s not a good example! Maybe we do agree more than I initially thought.
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On 5/4/2017 7:16 AM, Zach Lym wrote:
database could grow into an awesome onramp for the right way of doing things, but MariaDB is letting its only decent UI atrophy. Why it is the "only decent UI"? I never liked it as UI, personally I found it to huge to be likable.
I like HeidiSQL for UI purposes, and I'm not alone here, a lot of other people like it as well. According to its documentation ,its tested and runs well under wine, so it should run on your Linux and macOS I looked at other clients, and found Toad, dbForge and Navicat to be decent. Other people praised SQLYog. Some UIs are not free, some UIs might be Windows only, but there is a plenty of UIs, and there are decent UIs among them, and there is wine to run Windows software on your Linux and Mac.
Thank you, -Zach Lym
On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 1:35 PM, Sales <info@smallbusinessconsultingexperts.com> wrote:
On Apr 27, 2017, at 3:05 PM, Federico Razzoli <federico_raz@yahoo.it> wrote:
Well, clicking around, selecting things, switching to keyboards, and so on, can hardly be faster than writing an SQL statement - provided that you learn ALTER TABLE syntax.
But, apart from that, I think that we mostly agree on everything except one thing: the meaning of enterprise. In an enterprise environment a DBA needs to automate everything and write scripts. Also, as I wrote before and the author of that post also says, GUI's are not reliable, you never know exactly what they do.
That said, I suppose that GUIs can be useful for someone, especially for developers and hobbyists.
As far as the meaning of enterprise environment, look here:
http://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia/term/42642/enterprise-environment
I see no statement about writing scripts. If a DBA could truly “automate everything” as you state, them, they would be out of a job! :-) A DBA should use whatever tools are necessary and efficient for their job and for problem solving, period. If that’s a monitoring tool, then, use it. If that’s a command script, use it. I can give many examples of things faster in a GUI, but, it’s not necessary here. I was merely agreeing that it would be nice, as the OP posited. And you were disagreeing. I understand you could come up with examples faster in command line or scripts and I would agree with your examples, and I could come up with things faster in the gui. A gui is not just clicking. It can be used in the manner you are disagreeing with (to replace knowledge of alter table at a simplistic level), but it can also be used in many productive ways. They were used even in a fortune 10 company I used to work for. Even Oracle gives you one (not speaking of MySQL). I also count SNMP and other interfaces as GUIs as that is often the end point for their output. Such consoles are certainly guis and are very useful for seeing an enterprise wide view of how things are running. When you have hundreds of sites, kind of nice for a high level view with drill down.
I do get what you are saying, however, there are better uses for guis than your examples. And I would certainly never advocate *only* using a gui, of course not. I would only hope for an enhanced (to provided better tools) workbench. And I do agree they are useful for “developers and hobbyists”, to which I would add potentially hundreds of thousands of small business owners, which are wannabe developers and not quite hobbyists as many make a living off of open source software and databases they are using. In that sense, the market for gui users could be much larger than non gui users. Which of course is getting closer to your statement about enterprise.
I guess I will agree to disagree as there are so many flaws in what the article stated, each and every statement and conclusion is flawed. It’s not a good example! Maybe we do agree more than I initially thought.
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In the 21st century GUI's for any software are the difference between amateur systems run by geeks and professional systems used by business. Business in this century insists on Graphical User Interfaces for very many reasons and anyone who doesn't understand this is probably not in business. I agree with Vladislav, HiediSQL is my GUI of choice when working with MariaDB. Love it. I use it for:- user and security management, creating and modifying db’s, tables, views, stored procedures, functions, triggers, connect tables, writing and developing queries and for many other purposes. I do however use a command line interface to do backups, restores and replication management but only because I like to. And if you're worried about not knowing what the GUI is doing then you probably don't know what it is you want to do. And yes Zach, I’m also surprised by the number of arguments some people are putting up against using a GUI. This is 2017 not 1977. It makes the difference between successful marketable business software and geek only software. P.S. I used a GUI to write this email and it's running on a GUI OS. (not a very good one allbeit; WIN7) Do you know anyone still running DOS or CPM or even linux or unix with no GUI as their OS? Maybe a few geeks.??? But I bet they have a linux based GUI OS on their mobile. And believe me … I have nothing against geeks, …… I is one. Bruce Carlson -----Original Message----- From: Maria-discuss [mailto:maria-discuss-bounces+bruce.carlson=nepean.com@lists.launchpad.net] On Behalf Of Vladislav Vaintroub Sent: Thursday, 4 May 2017 4:14 PM To: Zach Lym; Sales; monty@askmonty.org Cc: maria-discuss@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Maria-discuss] MySQL Workbench Fork? On 5/4/2017 7:16 AM, Zach Lym wrote:
database could grow into an awesome onramp for the right way of doing
things, but MariaDB is letting its only decent UI atrophy.
Why it is the "only decent UI"? I never liked it as UI, personally I found it to huge to be likable. I like HeidiSQL for UI purposes, and I'm not alone here, a lot of other people like it as well. According to its documentation ,its tested and runs well under wine, so it should run on your Linux and macOS I looked at other clients, and found Toad, dbForge and Navicat to be decent. Other people praised SQLYog. Some UIs are not free, some UIs might be Windows only, but there is a plenty of UIs, and there are decent UIs among them, and there is wine to run Windows software on your Linux and Mac.
Thank you,
-Zach Lym
On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 1:35 PM, Sales
<info@smallbusinessconsultingexperts.com<mailto:info@smallbusinessconsultingexperts.com>> wrote:
On Apr 27, 2017, at 3:05 PM, Federico Razzoli <federico_raz@yahoo.it<mailto:federico_raz@yahoo.it>> wrote:
Well, clicking around, selecting things, switching to keyboards, and
so on, can hardly be faster than writing an SQL statement - provided
that you learn ALTER TABLE syntax.
But, apart from that, I think that we mostly agree on everything
except one
thing: the meaning of enterprise. In an enterprise environment a DBA
needs to automate everything and write scripts. Also, as I wrote
before and the author of that post also says, GUI's are not reliable,
you never know exactly what they do.
That said, I suppose that GUIs can be useful for someone, especially
for developers and hobbyists.
As far as the meaning of enterprise environment, look here:
http://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia/term/42642/enterprise-environment
I see no statement about writing scripts. If a DBA could truly
“automate everything” as you state, them, they would be out of a job!
:-) A DBA should use whatever tools are necessary and efficient for
their job and for problem solving, period. If that’s a monitoring
tool, then, use it. If that’s a command script, use it. I can give
many examples of things faster in a GUI, but, it’s not necessary
here. I was merely agreeing that it would be nice, as the OP posited.
And you were disagreeing. I understand you could come up with
examples faster in command line or scripts and I would agree with
your examples, and I could come up with things faster in the gui. A
gui is not just clicking. It can be used in the manner you are
disagreeing with (to replace knowledge of alter table at a simplistic
level), but it can also be used in many productive ways. They were
used even in a fortune 10 company I used to work for. Even Oracle
gives you one (not speaking of MySQL). I also count SNMP and other
interfaces as GUIs as that is often the end point for their output.
Such consoles are certainly guis and are very useful for seeing an enterprise wide view of how things are running. When you have hundreds of sites, kind of nice for a high level view with drill down.
I do get what you are saying, however, there are better uses for guis
than your examples. And I would certainly never advocate *only* using
a gui, of course not. I would only hope for an enhanced (to provided
better tools) workbench. And I do agree they are useful for
“developers and hobbyists”, to which I would add potentially hundreds
of thousands of small business owners, which are wannabe developers
and not quite hobbyists as many make a living off of open source
software and databases they are using. In that sense, the market for gui users could be much larger than non gui users.
Which of course is getting closer to your statement about enterprise.
I guess I will agree to disagree as there are so many flaws in what
the article stated, each and every statement and conclusion is
flawed. It’s not a good example! Maybe we do agree more than I initially thought.
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In the 21st century GUI's for any software are the difference between amateur systems run by geeks and professional systems used by business.
Seriously, NO. That's the same kind of predicate that led some people to believe that only Microsoft software is "Professional"...
Bruce wrote :- <In the 21st century GUI's for any software are the difference between amateur systems run by geeks and professional systems used by business.> Guillaume Lefranc wrote:- <Seriously, NO. That's the same kind of predicate that led some people to believe that only Microsoft software is "Professional"...> Argh. Yes I couldn’t agree with you more. There’s a message in there somewhere Guillaume. “Successful GUI equals successful public uptake.” Microsoft software may not be the best there is and I personally use it very rarely, however the vast majority of the world’s profesionals do. It gained it’s market share in the early days in part by being a forerunner in GUI development. If all you want is an extremely good application that only highly skilled rare individuals can use and manage then OK but if you want to gain public acceptance and uptake, add a GUI. And just because you do use a GUI tool it doesn’t mean you are not a highly skilled rare individual. I still like HeidiSQL. The people from HeidiSQL have done a good job. I’ve got two instances of it running right now. A dammed good GUI. The original argument here was not should DBA’s use a GUI but should MariaDB develope a GUI “Workbench”. The fact is there are quite a few GUI’s out there already that DBA’s are using as management tools for MariaDB. Some excellent, some not so excellent. Should MariaDB develop their own ?????????????????? That’s up to MariaDB developers I guess. Should DBA’s use a GUI ??????? That’s up to the individual DBA I guess. Would a GUI help public uptake of MariaDB ????????????? They already have. Bruce Carlson
participants (8)
-
Bruce Carlson -
Federico Razzoli -
Guillaume Lefranc -
Reindl Harald -
Sales -
Vladislav Vaintroub -
Zach Lym -
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