[Maria-discuss] Code of Conduct
In the light of recent events, we're implementing a Code of Conduct. Details at https://mariadb.org/going-for-a-code-of-conduct/ - comments are welcome!
On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 05:52:53PM +0200, Ian Gilfillan wrote:
In the light of recent events, we're implementing a Code of Conduct. Details at https://mariadb.org/going-for-a-code-of-conduct/ - comments are welcome!
Codes of conducts are facist and I will not comply with any code of conduct. I have a rabbi and will not take on a second one.
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-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
On Wednesday 21 December 2022 at 18:54:06, Ruben Safir wrote:
On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 05:52:53PM +0200, Ian Gilfillan wrote:
In the light of recent events, we're implementing a Code of Conduct. Details at https://mariadb.org/going-for-a-code-of-conduct/ - comments are welcome!
Codes of conducts are facist and I will not comply with any code of conduct.
Hopefully you may find that the Code aligns with your natural tendencies anyway and therefore you feel no inclination to go against it, whether you feel this to be "complying" or not. Personally I have no idea what "recent events" have led to a Code being drawn up, however having read the text linked to above, I would be somewhat bothered about anyone who found it objectionable.
I have a rabbi and will not take on a second one.
Maybe it's because I do not have one, but I have no idea what this statement means. Antony. -- You can spend the whole of your life trying to be popular, but at the end of the day the size of the crowd at your funeral will be largely dictated by the weather. - Frank Skinner Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me.
On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 07:26:52PM +0100, Antony Stone wrote:
On Wednesday 21 December 2022 at 18:54:06, Ruben Safir wrote:
On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 05:52:53PM +0200, Ian Gilfillan wrote:
In the light of recent events, we're implementing a Code of Conduct. Details at https://mariadb.org/going-for-a-code-of-conduct/ - comments are welcome!
Codes of conducts are facist and I will not comply with any code of conduct.
Hopefully you may find that the Code aligns with your natural tendencies anyway and therefore you feel no inclination to go against it, whether you feel this to be "complying" or not.
Personally I have no idea what "recent events" have led to a Code being drawn up, however having read the text linked to above, I would be somewhat bothered about anyone who found it objectionable.
I have a rabbi and will not take on a second one.
Maybe it's because I do not have one, but I have no idea what this statement means.
Antony.
These things are just tools to kick people you don't like or agree with out of your group. It is facist and it is always applied in a facist way every time without exception. The circumvents independient thought, due process, and encourage complaints and trolls.
-- You can spend the whole of your life trying to be popular, It is a big fat no.
but at the end of the day the size of the crowd at your funeral will be largely dictated by the weather.
- Frank Skinner
Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me.
_______________________________________________ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~maria-discuss Post to : maria-discuss@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~maria-discuss More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
--- Best regards / Mit freundlichen Grüßen Alexander Nolting ----- Ursprüngliche Mail -----
Von: "Ruben Safir" <ruben@mrbrklyn.com> An: "Antony Stone" <Antony.Stone@mariadb.open.source.it> CC: "maria-discuss" <maria-discuss@lists.launchpad.net> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 21. Dezember 2022 22:52:28 Betreff: Re: [Maria-discuss] Code of Conduct
On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 07:26:52PM +0100, Antony Stone wrote:
On Wednesday 21 December 2022 at 18:54:06, Ruben Safir wrote:
On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 05:52:53PM +0200, Ian Gilfillan wrote:
In the light of recent events, we're implementing a Code of Conduct. Details at https://mariadb.org/going-for-a-code-of-conduct/ - comments are welcome!
Codes of conducts are facist and I will not comply with any code of conduct.
Hopefully you may find that the Code aligns with your natural tendencies anyway and therefore you feel no inclination to go against it, whether you feel this to be "complying" or not.
Personally I have no idea what "recent events" have led to a Code being drawn up, however having read the text linked to above, I would be somewhat bothered about anyone who found it objectionable.
I have a rabbi and will not take on a second one.
Maybe it's because I do not have one, but I have no idea what this statement means.
Antony.
These things are just tools to kick people you don't like or agree with out of your group. It is facist and it is always applied in a facist way every time without exception.
The circumvents independient thought, due process, and encourage complaints and trolls.
So far so good. I can identify with this part of your position. But just saying that you are against regulations that are supposed to be introduced in order to be able to control discussions is not enough if you reject them as fascist with such clear words. Personally I would like to have your thoughts on the follwowing: How do you would deal with personal attacks? What alternative suggestions do you have for dealing with people who leave the factual level and make personal attacks with insults and defamatory statements about people and bring them into the discussion that not only offends the target of these attacks but others and possibly also you?
-- You can spend the whole of your life trying to be popular, It is a big fat no.
but at the end of the day the size of the crowd at your funeral will be largely dictated by the weather.
- Frank Skinner
Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me.
_______________________________________________ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~maria-discuss Post to : maria-discuss@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~maria-discuss More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com
DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com
Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
_______________________________________________ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~maria-discuss Post to : maria-discuss@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~maria-discuss More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Hi Ruben, On 21/12/2022 21:52, Ruben Safir wrote:
These things are just tools to kick people you don't like or agree with out of your group. It is facist and it is always applied in a facist way every time without exception. The circumvents independient thought, due process, and encourage complaints and trolls.
We are not a government or political entity so "facist" might be the wrong word here. But I think I understand the general direction you are taking. And some can absolutely be used that way. The intention is not to kick people we don't like or agree with. If you have ever seen a real-life discussion on implementing MariaDB Server feature you'll see many disagreements. Instead the intention is to discourage people from personal attacks at each other, which negatively affects the group as a whole. As mentioned in the blog post, if you have suggestions on ideas to make this better, please feel free to comment with them. Kind Regards -- Andrew (LinuxJedi) Hutchings Chief Contributions Officer MariaDB Foundation
Andrew Hutchings <andrew@mariadb.org> writes:
Instead the intention is to discourage people from personal attacks at each other, which negatively affects the group as a whole.
It doesn't affect anyone at all expect those that choose to read them and have nothing better to spend their time on than react to them and feed the trolls. The way to improve the mailing lists is to move the traffic from mariadb.com / mariadb.org internal mailing lists/private mail onto the public lists. Not to put up systems to reduce the trafic even further (however low the value of such traffic may currently be). - Kristian.
On Thursday 22 December 2022 at 13:27:00, Kristian Nielsen wrote:
Andrew Hutchings <andrew@mariadb.org> writes:
Instead the intention is to discourage people from personal attacks at each other, which negatively affects the group as a whole.
It doesn't affect anyone at all except those that choose to read them and have nothing better to spend their time on than react to them and feed the trolls.
The way to improve the mailing lists is to move the traffic from mariadb.com / mariadb.org internal mailing lists/private mail onto the public lists.
Is this not a public list? I think I have worked who/what sparked off this decision to introduce a CofC - the reason I wasn't previously aware is because the person I now think has triggered this action has been on my "delete any email from / to / about this person" for some years, due to unpleasant interactions I have seen or been part of, on too many other lists. I can certainly say that this person does not in the least bit hold back from expressing their opinions in public and having them archived for the Internet to read, so I don't see how switching anything to a more public forum (and I still question, is this list not already public enough?) would make any useful difference. Antony. -- "640 kilobytes (of RAM) should be enough for anybody." - Bill Gates Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me.
Hi Kristian, On 22/12/2022 12:27, Kristian Nielsen wrote:
Andrew Hutchings <andrew@mariadb.org> writes:
Instead the intention is to discourage people from personal attacks at each other, which negatively affects the group as a whole.
It doesn't affect anyone at all expect those that choose to read them and have nothing better to spend their time on than react to them and feed the trolls.
Unfortunately not true, such activity is seen by newer member of the community and these people go elsewhere (yes, this has happened, more than once).
The way to improve the mailing lists is to move the traffic from mariadb.com / mariadb.org internal mailing lists/private mail onto the public lists. Not to put up systems to reduce the trafic even further (however low the value of such traffic may currently be).
All the MariaDB mailing lists are public already. Mailing list message activity isn't too high, many people have moved on to other methods of communication (Zulip, MariaDB Community Slack, Reddit, etc...). But I don't see the mailing list going away any time soon either. Kind Regards -- Andrew (LinuxJedi) Hutchings Chief Contributions Officer MariaDB Foundation
On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 02:42:05PM +0000, Andrew Hutchings wrote:
Hi Kristian,
On 22/12/2022 12:27, Kristian Nielsen wrote:
Andrew Hutchings <andrew@mariadb.org> writes:
Instead the intention is to discourage people from personal attacks at each other, which negatively affects the group as a whole.
It doesn't affect anyone at all expect those that choose to read them and have nothing better to spend their time on than react to them and feed the trolls.
Unfortunately not true, such activity is seen by newer member of the community and these people go elsewhere (yes, this has happened, more than once).
You know and the entire public knows that the trolling and communications failures of the electronic media follows all platforms equally and neither codes of conducts or how such communications are transmited has any effect nor do they prevent the controversies that come with the need for proper moderation. The only thing Codes of Conducts do is circumvent responsibilities for moderation and arbitration of conflict with fake standards with equally fake claims of aliantations. https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3iic7o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QereR0CViMY Fuck the Nazi's and the Code of Conduct.
The way to improve the mailing lists is to move the traffic from mariadb.com / mariadb.org internal mailing lists/private mail onto the public lists. Not to put up systems to reduce the trafic even further (however low the value of such traffic may currently be).
All the MariaDB mailing lists are public already. Mailing list message activity isn't too high, many people have moved on to other methods of communication (Zulip, MariaDB Community Slack, Reddit, etc...). But I don't see the mailing list going away any time soon either.
Kind Regards -- Andrew (LinuxJedi) Hutchings Chief Contributions Officer MariaDB Foundation
_______________________________________________ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~maria-discuss Post to : maria-discuss@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~maria-discuss More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
On Thursday 22 December 2022 at 17:01:21, Ruben Safir wrote:
Fuck the Nazi's and the Code of Conduct.
To be honest, your conduct in this very discussion is making me start to wonder whether you might become the first person asked to leave the forum for personal abuse. Or, have I misinterpreted who you are referring to as Nazis here? If you meant it as a general term and nothing at all to do with any people in the MariaDB group specifically, then plenty of people might agree with your sentiments, but I still think it's an inappropriate way to express your feelings here about the National Socialist party of the German third Reich. Antony. -- "Remember: the S in IoT stands for Security." - Jan-Piet Mens Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me.
On 22.12.22 17:21, Antony Stone wrote:
To be honest, your conduct in this very discussion is making me start to wonder whether you might become the first person asked to leave the forum for personal abuse.
I was starting to think the same ... :( -- Hartmut Holzgraefe, Principal Support Engineer (EMEA) MariaDB Corporation | http://www.mariadb.com/
On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 05:21:17PM +0100, Antony Stone wrote:
On Thursday 22 December 2022 at 17:01:21, Ruben Safir wrote:
Fuck the Nazi's and the Code of Conduct.
To be honest, your conduct in this very discussion is making me start to wonder whether you might become the first person asked to leave the forum for personal abuse.
To be honest, this is not the first time you've been on the wrong side of this issue and I don't care how you either interpret or misinterpret what I wrote. But you just laid out a perfect reason why Codes of Conductions are tools of fascists and should never be implemented.
Or, have I misinterpreted who you are referring to as Nazis here?
If you meant it as a general term and nothing at all to do with any people in the MariaDB group specifically, then plenty of people might agree with your sentiments, but I still think it's an inappropriate way to express your feelings here about the National Socialist party of the German third Reich.
https://www.rif.org/ Give to charity before the new year finishes
Antony.
-- "Remember: the S in IoT stands for Security."
- Jan-Piet Mens
Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me.
_______________________________________________ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~maria-discuss Post to : maria-discuss@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~maria-discuss More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
There was actually only one part of this that seems like it is on the money and that was code of conduct means moderation isn't required. But that's just the surface impression. It is a simple observation that comes from not understanding what the code of conduct means and it assumes that moderation must be done centrally. A code of conduct requires each and every member of the group (be it companies, doctors, football teams or mailing lists) to perform moderation themselves for themselves. A code of conduct is in effect distributed moderation. Responsibilities are thus not circumvented, they are distributed. In the case of this mailing list, it means every member of the mailing list is responsible for moderating the content that they supply in accordance with the guidelines from the blog post. ________________________________ From: Maria-discuss <maria-discuss-bounces+db1280=hotmail.com@lists.launchpad.net> on behalf of Ruben Safir <ruben@mrbrklyn.com> Sent: Friday, 23 December 2022 3:01 AM To: Andrew Hutchings <andrew@mariadb.org> Cc: maria-discuss@lists.launchpad.net <maria-discuss@lists.launchpad.net> Subject: Re: [Maria-discuss] Code of Conduct On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 02:42:05PM +0000, Andrew Hutchings wrote:
Hi Kristian,
On 22/12/2022 12:27, Kristian Nielsen wrote:
Andrew Hutchings <andrew@mariadb.org> writes:
Instead the intention is to discourage people from personal attacks at each other, which negatively affects the group as a whole.
It doesn't affect anyone at all expect those that choose to read them and have nothing better to spend their time on than react to them and feed the trolls.
Unfortunately not true, such activity is seen by newer member of the community and these people go elsewhere (yes, this has happened, more than once).
You know and the entire public knows that the trolling and communications failures of the electronic media follows all platforms equally and neither codes of conducts or how such communications are transmited has any effect nor do they prevent the controversies that come with the need for proper moderation. The only thing Codes of Conducts do is circumvent responsibilities for moderation and arbitration of conflict with fake standards with equally fake claims of aliantations. https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3iic7o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QereR0CViMY Fuck the Nazi's and the Code of Conduct.
The way to improve the mailing lists is to move the traffic from mariadb.com / mariadb.org internal mailing lists/private mail onto the public lists. Not to put up systems to reduce the trafic even further (however low the value of such traffic may currently be).
All the MariaDB mailing lists are public already. Mailing list message activity isn't too high, many people have moved on to other methods of communication (Zulip, MariaDB Community Slack, Reddit, etc...). But I don't see the mailing list going away any time soon either.
Kind Regards -- Andrew (LinuxJedi) Hutchings Chief Contributions Officer MariaDB Foundation
_______________________________________________ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~maria-discuss Post to : maria-discuss@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~maria-discuss More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 _______________________________________________ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~maria-discuss Post to : maria-discuss@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~maria-discuss More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 07:01:09PM +0000, martin doc wrote:
There was actually only one part of this that seems like it is on the money and that was code of conduct means moderation isn't required. But that's just the surface impression. It is a simple observation that comes from not understanding what the code of conduct means and it assumes that moderation must be done centrally.
A code of conduct requires each and every member of the group (be it companies, doctors, football teams or mailing lists) to perform moderation themselves for themselves. A code of conduct is in effect distributed moderation. Responsibilities are thus not circumvented, they are distributed. In the case of this mailing list, it means every member of the mailing list is responsible for moderating the content that they supply in accordance with the guidelines from the blog post.
________________________________
Please - don't blow smoke at us with spacious logic
From: Maria-discuss <maria-discuss-bounces+db1280=hotmail.com@lists.launchpad.net> on behalf of Ruben Safir <ruben@mrbrklyn.com> Sent: Friday, 23 December 2022 3:01 AM To: Andrew Hutchings <andrew@mariadb.org> Cc: maria-discuss@lists.launchpad.net <maria-discuss@lists.launchpad.net> Subject: Re: [Maria-discuss] Code of Conduct
On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 02:42:05PM +0000, Andrew Hutchings wrote:
Hi Kristian,
On 22/12/2022 12:27, Kristian Nielsen wrote:
Andrew Hutchings <andrew@mariadb.org> writes:
Instead the intention is to discourage people from personal attacks at each other, which negatively affects the group as a whole.
It doesn't affect anyone at all expect those that choose to read them and have nothing better to spend their time on than react to them and feed the trolls.
Unfortunately not true, such activity is seen by newer member of the community and these people go elsewhere (yes, this has happened, more than once).
You know and the entire public knows that the trolling and communications failures of the electronic media follows all platforms equally and neither codes of conducts or how such communications are transmited has any effect nor do they prevent the controversies that come with the need for proper moderation.
The only thing Codes of Conducts do is circumvent responsibilities for moderation and arbitration of conflict with fake standards with equally fake claims of aliantations.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3iic7o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QereR0CViMY
Fuck the Nazi's and the Code of Conduct.
The way to improve the mailing lists is to move the traffic from mariadb.com / mariadb.org internal mailing lists/private mail onto the public lists. Not to put up systems to reduce the trafic even further (however low the value of such traffic may currently be).
All the MariaDB mailing lists are public already. Mailing list message activity isn't too high, many people have moved on to other methods of communication (Zulip, MariaDB Community Slack, Reddit, etc...). But I don't see the mailing list going away any time soon either.
Kind Regards -- Andrew (LinuxJedi) Hutchings Chief Contributions Officer MariaDB Foundation
_______________________________________________ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~maria-discuss Post to : maria-discuss@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~maria-discuss More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com
DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com
Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
_______________________________________________ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~maria-discuss Post to : maria-discuss@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~maria-discuss More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
Put it this way - would you expect to get away with abusive behaviour at work without getting booted out? Or in a restaurant? Or at a conference? Bottom line is that we are all here as guests of MariaDB. If you don't like the house rules, you are free to leave. Encouraged to leave, in fact. For the record, I am not a fan of codes of conduct - but I do support the list owners' right to boot off whomever is making the community look bad, at their own discretion. If you don't like it, that's cool, go set up your own community, mailing list, slack, twitter, whatever. The barrier to entry is close to non-existent. May the better community win. On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, 21:52 Ruben Safir, <ruben@mrbrklyn.com> wrote:
There was actually only one part of this that seems like it is on the money and that was code of conduct means moderation isn't required. But
On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 07:01:09PM +0000, martin doc wrote: that's just the surface impression. It is a simple observation that comes from not understanding what the code of conduct means and it assumes that moderation must be done centrally.
A code of conduct requires each and every member of the group (be it
companies, doctors, football teams or mailing lists) to perform moderation themselves for themselves. A code of conduct is in effect distributed moderation. Responsibilities are thus not circumvented, they are distributed. In the case of this mailing list, it means every member of the mailing list is responsible for moderating the content that they supply in accordance with the guidelines from the blog post.
________________________________
Please - don't blow smoke at us with spacious logic
From: Maria-discuss <maria-discuss-bounces+db1280= hotmail.com@lists.launchpad.net> on behalf of Ruben Safir < ruben@mrbrklyn.com> Sent: Friday, 23 December 2022 3:01 AM To: Andrew Hutchings <andrew@mariadb.org> Cc: maria-discuss@lists.launchpad.net <maria-discuss@lists.launchpad.net
Subject: Re: [Maria-discuss] Code of Conduct
On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 02:42:05PM +0000, Andrew Hutchings wrote:
Hi Kristian,
On 22/12/2022 12:27, Kristian Nielsen wrote:
Andrew Hutchings <andrew@mariadb.org> writes:
Instead the intention is to discourage people from personal attacks at each other, which negatively affects the group as a whole.
It doesn't affect anyone at all expect those that choose to read them and have nothing better to spend their time on than react to them and feed the trolls.
Unfortunately not true, such activity is seen by newer member of the community and these people go elsewhere (yes, this has happened, more than once).
You know and the entire public knows that the trolling and communications failures of the electronic media follows all platforms equally and neither codes of conducts or how such communications are transmited has any effect nor do they prevent the controversies that come with the need for proper moderation.
The only thing Codes of Conducts do is circumvent responsibilities for moderation and arbitration of conflict with fake standards with equally fake claims of aliantations.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3iic7o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QereR0CViMY
Fuck the Nazi's and the Code of Conduct.
The way to improve the mailing lists is to move the traffic from mariadb.com / mariadb.org internal mailing lists/private mail onto the public lists. Not to put up systems to reduce the trafic even further (however low the value of such traffic may currently be).
All the MariaDB mailing lists are public already. Mailing list message activity isn't too high, many people have moved on to other methods of communication (Zulip, MariaDB Community Slack, Reddit, etc...). But I don't see the mailing list going away any time soon either.
Kind Regards -- Andrew (LinuxJedi) Hutchings Chief Contributions Officer MariaDB Foundation
_______________________________________________ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~maria-discuss Post to : maria-discuss@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~maria-discuss More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com
DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com
Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
_______________________________________________ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~maria-discuss Post to : maria-discuss@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~maria-discuss More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com
DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com
Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
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On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 10:32:36PM +0200, Gordan Bobic wrote:
Put it this way - would you expect to get away with abusive behaviour at work without getting booted out? Or in a restaurant? Or at a conference?
This is not work, a restaurant or a conference and the Code of Conducts doesn't define abuse .... So your wrong on all those points. Codes of Conducts are facist tools to harrass anyone who doesn't agree with you... period.and enforcing the moral standards of a few on the many and to levy false chages on people and push them out of organizations. That is there purpose. Do you know who John Tennant was? Remember Aaron Swartz? Did you witness the fiasco at the FSF? I will not comply with a code of conduction. And I will not have the utter stupidy of Corperate HR departments dictate my private affiliations or determin my ethical standards. All codes of conducts are evil. BTW - maybe you should reconsider using gmail for your email account. Grow up and get a real mail server, one that doesn't spy on you.
Bottom line is that we are all here as guests of MariaDB. If you don't like the house rules, you are free to leave. Encouraged to leave, in fact.
For the record, I am not a fan of codes of conduct - but I do support the list owners' right to boot off whomever is making the community look bad, at their own discretion.
If you don't like it, that's cool, go set up your own community, mailing list, slack, twitter, whatever. The barrier to entry is close to non-existent. May the better community win.
On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, 21:52 Ruben Safir, <ruben@mrbrklyn.com> wrote:
There was actually only one part of this that seems like it is on the money and that was code of conduct means moderation isn't required. But
On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 07:01:09PM +0000, martin doc wrote: that's just the surface impression. It is a simple observation that comes from not understanding what the code of conduct means and it assumes that moderation must be done centrally.
A code of conduct requires each and every member of the group (be it
companies, doctors, football teams or mailing lists) to perform moderation themselves for themselves. A code of conduct is in effect distributed moderation. Responsibilities are thus not circumvented, they are distributed. In the case of this mailing list, it means every member of the mailing list is responsible for moderating the content that they supply in accordance with the guidelines from the blog post.
________________________________
Please - don't blow smoke at us with spacious logic
From: Maria-discuss <maria-discuss-bounces+db1280= hotmail.com@lists.launchpad.net> on behalf of Ruben Safir < ruben@mrbrklyn.com> Sent: Friday, 23 December 2022 3:01 AM To: Andrew Hutchings <andrew@mariadb.org> Cc: maria-discuss@lists.launchpad.net <maria-discuss@lists.launchpad.net
Subject: Re: [Maria-discuss] Code of Conduct
On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 02:42:05PM +0000, Andrew Hutchings wrote:
Hi Kristian,
On 22/12/2022 12:27, Kristian Nielsen wrote:
Andrew Hutchings <andrew@mariadb.org> writes:
Instead the intention is to discourage people from personal attacks at each other, which negatively affects the group as a whole.
It doesn't affect anyone at all expect those that choose to read them and have nothing better to spend their time on than react to them and feed the trolls.
Unfortunately not true, such activity is seen by newer member of the community and these people go elsewhere (yes, this has happened, more than once).
You know and the entire public knows that the trolling and communications failures of the electronic media follows all platforms equally and neither codes of conducts or how such communications are transmited has any effect nor do they prevent the controversies that come with the need for proper moderation.
The only thing Codes of Conducts do is circumvent responsibilities for moderation and arbitration of conflict with fake standards with equally fake claims of aliantations.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3iic7o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QereR0CViMY
Fuck the Nazi's and the Code of Conduct.
The way to improve the mailing lists is to move the traffic from mariadb.com / mariadb.org internal mailing lists/private mail onto the public lists. Not to put up systems to reduce the trafic even further (however low the value of such traffic may currently be).
All the MariaDB mailing lists are public already. Mailing list message activity isn't too high, many people have moved on to other methods of communication (Zulip, MariaDB Community Slack, Reddit, etc...). But I don't see the mailing list going away any time soon either.
Kind Regards -- Andrew (LinuxJedi) Hutchings Chief Contributions Officer MariaDB Foundation
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-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com
DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com
Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
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-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com
DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com
Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
_______________________________________________ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~maria-discuss Post to : maria-discuss@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~maria-discuss More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
_______________________________________________ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~maria-discuss Post to : maria-discuss@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~maria-discuss More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
On Fri, Dec 23, 2022 at 1:31 PM Ruben Safir <ruben@mrbrklyn.com> wrote:
On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 10:32:36PM +0200, Gordan Bobic wrote:
Put it this way - would you expect to get away with abusive behaviour at work without getting booted out? Or in a restaurant? Or at a conference?
This is not work, a restaurant or a conference and the Code of Conducts doesn't define abuse ....
So your wrong on all those points.
It is roughly equivalent to the ones I mentioned. If you cannot see that, I can only assume you are being willfully ignorant and facetious.
Codes of Conducts are facist tools to harrass anyone who doesn't agree with you... period.and enforcing the moral standards of a few on the many and to levy false chages on people and push them out of organizations.
That is there purpose.
Do you know who John Tennant was? Remember Aaron Swartz? Did you witness the fiasco at the FSF?
I will not comply with a code of conduction. And I will not have the utter stupidy of Corperate HR departments dictate my private affiliations or determin my ethical standards.
All codes of conducts are evil.
BTW - maybe you should reconsider using gmail for your email account. Grow up and get a real mail server, one that doesn't spy on you.
I use gmail specifically because I grew up. I was running my own mail servers for a decade. These days I have far better things to do with my time than waste it on solving problems that have been extensively solved. Gordan
On Fri, Dec 23, 2022 at 01:37:23PM +0200, Gordan Bobic wrote:
On Fri, Dec 23, 2022 at 1:31 PM Ruben Safir <ruben@mrbrklyn.com> wrote:
On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 10:32:36PM +0200, Gordan Bobic wrote:
Put it this way - would you expect to get away with abusive behaviour at work without getting booted out? Or in a restaurant? Or at a conference?
This is not work, a restaurant or a conference and the Code of Conducts doesn't define abuse ....
So your wrong on all those points.
It is roughly equivalent to the ones I mentioned. If you cannot see that, I can only assume you are being willfully ignorant and facetious.
No it is not. And this is not the time through the rodeo with narrowmind corperate mentality lining up defeat free software and free speach under the guise, "Well we do this in coperate businesss so it must be right". It is not Axiomatic like you so non-chalantly and carelessly put forward. And once again, aside from the trouble you had understanding and reading what I wrote, and failing to understand that we don't use coperate HR standards as a measure of our involvement and speach, you CONTINUE to use a gmail account for your email. If you can't get the right side of the morality issue of using a company that openly spies on your email, how can anyone take your opinion seriously on a Code of Conduct?
Codes of Conducts are facist tools to harrass anyone who doesn't agree with you... period.and enforcing the moral standards of a few on the many and to levy false chages on people and push them out of organizations.
That is there purpose.
Do you know who John Tennant was? Remember Aaron Swartz? Did you witness the fiasco at the FSF?
I will not comply with a code of conduction. And I will not have the utter stupidy of Corperate HR departments dictate my private affiliations or determin my ethical standards.
All codes of conducts are evil.
BTW - maybe you should reconsider using gmail for your email account. Grow up and get a real mail server, one that doesn't spy on you.
I use gmail specifically because I grew up. I was running my own mail servers for a decade. These days I have far better things to do with my time than waste it on solving problems that have been extensively solved.
Gordan
-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
I don't think there is any point in arguing the toss. In no small part because it is going to make no difference whatsoever to anything. On Fri, Dec 23, 2022 at 1:45 PM Ruben Safir <ruben@mrbrklyn.com> wrote:
On Fri, Dec 23, 2022 at 01:37:23PM +0200, Gordan Bobic wrote:
On Fri, Dec 23, 2022 at 1:31 PM Ruben Safir <ruben@mrbrklyn.com> wrote:
On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 10:32:36PM +0200, Gordan Bobic wrote:
Put it this way - would you expect to get away with abusive behaviour at work without getting booted out? Or in a restaurant? Or at a conference?
This is not work, a restaurant or a conference and the Code of Conducts doesn't define abuse ....
So your wrong on all those points.
It is roughly equivalent to the ones I mentioned. If you cannot see that, I can only assume you are being willfully ignorant and facetious.
No it is not. And this is not the time through the rodeo with narrowmind corperate mentality lining up defeat free software and free speach under the guise, "Well we do this in coperate businesss so it must be right". It is not Axiomatic like you so non-chalantly and carelessly put forward.
And once again, aside from the trouble you had understanding and reading what I wrote, and failing to understand that we don't use coperate HR standards as a measure of our involvement and speach, you CONTINUE to use a gmail account for your email. If you can't get the right side of the morality issue of using a company that openly spies on your email, how can anyone take your opinion seriously on a Code of Conduct?
Codes of Conducts are facist tools to harrass anyone who doesn't agree with you... period.and enforcing the moral standards of a few on the many and to levy false chages on people and push them out of organizations.
That is there purpose.
Do you know who John Tennant was? Remember Aaron Swartz? Did you witness the fiasco at the FSF?
I will not comply with a code of conduction. And I will not have the utter stupidy of Corperate HR departments dictate my private affiliations or determin my ethical standards.
All codes of conducts are evil.
BTW - maybe you should reconsider using gmail for your email account. Grow up and get a real mail server, one that doesn't spy on you.
I use gmail specifically because I grew up. I was running my own mail servers for a decade. These days I have far better things to do with my time than waste it on solving problems that have been extensively solved.
Gordan
-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com
DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com
Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
One more thing, Try to actually have a conversaiton here by addressing what was previously written. I will repeat it here. Do you know who John Tennant was? Remember Aaron Swartz? Did you witness the fiasco at the FSF?
I do. And it is not relevant to MariaDB and databases so this didn't seem like an appropriate forum. On Fri, Dec 23, 2022 at 2:01 PM Ruben Safir <ruben@mrbrklyn.com> wrote:
One more thing, Try to actually have a conversaiton here by addressing what was previously written.
I will repeat it here.
Do you know who John Tennant was? Remember Aaron Swartz? Did you witness the fiasco at the FSF?
Hi Martin, I quite like this view. There has been some good feedback in this thread and other places already. To some extent the description in your second paragraph is happening here already in another part of the thread. Kind Regards Andrew On 22/12/2022 19:01, martin doc wrote:
There was actually only one part of this that seems like it is on the money and that was code of conduct means moderation isn't required. But that's just the surface impression. It is a simple observation that comes from not understanding what the code of conduct means and it assumes that moderation must be done centrally.
A code of conduct requires each and every member of the group (be it companies, doctors, football teams or mailing lists) to perform moderation themselves for themselves. A code of conduct is in effect distributed moderation. Responsibilities are thus not circumvented, they are distributed. In the case of this mailing list, it means every member of the mailing list is responsible for moderating the content that they supply in accordance with the guidelines from the blog post.-- Andrew (LinuxJedi) Hutchings Chief Contributions Officer MariaDB Foundation
Generally a good idea. It can be abused if not careful, due to the subjective nature of determining what is offensive or "inflammatory". I would suggest that "inflammatory language" be something that be more defined and/or allowed toward things but not people (if that is possible). One could look at the original source code to Linux before it was 'sanitized' of the colorful language to see some passionate views. Much opinion expression will be inflammatory to someone (such as my opinion of Apple or Microsoft). BA On 12/21/2022 7:52 AM, Ian Gilfillan wrote:
In the light of recent events, we're implementing a Code of Conduct. Details at https://mariadb.org/going-for-a-code-of-conduct/ - comments are welcome!
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Hi Brian, We deliberately don't want it too wordy, otherwise it would turn into something more like a terms of service. It is more a guideline so we can have civil discourse without risk of person attack. With that in mind we would be open to suggestions over a different word or few words instead of "inflammatory". A lot of it depends on the use of the language too. You can still have passionate views whilst aligning with the Bill & Ted mantra of "be excellent to each other" :) Kind Regards Andrew On 21/12/2022 21:01, Brian Andrus wrote:
Generally a good idea. It can be abused if not careful, due to the subjective nature of determining what is offensive or "inflammatory".
I would suggest that "inflammatory language" be something that be more defined and/or allowed toward things but not people (if that is possible). One could look at the original source code to Linux before it was 'sanitized' of the colorful language to see some passionate views. Much opinion expression will be inflammatory to someone (such as my opinion of Apple or Microsoft).
BA
On 12/21/2022 7:52 AM, Ian Gilfillan wrote:
In the light of recent events, we're implementing a Code of Conduct. Details at https://mariadb.org/going-for-a-code-of-conduct/ - comments are welcome!
_______________________________________________ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~maria-discuss Post to : maria-discuss@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~maria-discuss More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
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-- Andrew (LinuxJedi) Hutchings Chief Contributions Officer MariaDB Foundation
participants (10)
-
Alexander Nolting -
Andrew Hutchings -
Antony Stone -
Brian Andrus -
Gordan Bobic -
Hartmut Holzgraefe -
Ian Gilfillan -
Kristian Nielsen -
martin doc -
Ruben Safir