[Maria-discuss] Is it possible to upgrade SHA-1 and MD5 algorithms in Mariadb-10.5?
Hi, In RHEL-9 we are deprecating, old SHA-1 and MD5 and that's why I want to ask you if there is any chance that upstream is going to change it, or we should do it downstream. These algorithms are no longer considered as safe, so it may be a good thing to upgrade them. AFAIK mariadb uses these algorithms in *mariadb* and *mariadb-connector-c.* Also if you have no intention to change it, is there any chance you could help us somehow. Maybe point out what we should be aware of. Please let me know what you think Lukas -- S pozdravom/ Best regards Lukáš Javorský Associate Software Engineer, Core service - Databases Red Hat <https://www.redhat.com> Purkyňova 115 (TPB-C) 612 00 Brno - Královo Pole ljavorsk@redhat.com <https://www.redhat.com>
Hi, Lukas! What do you mean by "upgrade SHA-1 and MD5 algorithms in MariaDB" ? Regards, Sergei VP of MariaDB Server Engineering and security@mariadb.org On Mar 17, Lukas Javorsky wrote:
Hi,
In RHEL-9 we are deprecating, old SHA-1 and MD5 and that's why I want to ask you if there is any chance that upstream is going to change it, or we should do it downstream.
These algorithms are no longer considered as safe, so it may be a good thing to upgrade them.
AFAIK mariadb uses these algorithms in *mariadb* and *mariadb-connector-c.*
Also if you have no intention to change it, is there any chance you could help us somehow. Maybe point out what we should be aware of.
Please let me know what you think
Lukas
-- S pozdravom/ Best regards
Lukáš Javorský
Associate Software Engineer, Core service - Databases
Red Hat <https://www.redhat.com>
Purkyňova 115 (TPB-C)
612 00 Brno - Královo Pole
ljavorsk@redhat.com <https://www.redhat.com>
Hey Sergei, I cannot speak in the name of Lukas but I assume that he is talking about the payload signature of RPM files. Technically speaking SHA1 and MD5 can collide but only to specific file sizes. It's not that simple to create an RPM in a size of 10+ MB which will provide the exact same functionality ie DB which will include errors and/or other things. I know it's pretty simple to upgrade the signature so I do not find any reason to not add a SHA256 sig. All The Bests, Eliezer ---- Eliezer Croitoru Tech Support Mobile: +972-5-28704261 Email: ngtech1ltd@gmail.com Zoom: Coming soon -----Original Message----- From: Maria-discuss <maria-discuss-bounces+ngtech1ltd=gmail.com@lists.launchpad.net> On Behalf Of Sergei Golubchik Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2021 5:24 PM To: Lukas Javorsky <ljavorsk@redhat.com> Cc: maria-discuss@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Maria-discuss] Is it possible to upgrade SHA-1 and MD5 algorithms in Mariadb-10.5? Hi, Lukas! What do you mean by "upgrade SHA-1 and MD5 algorithms in MariaDB" ? Regards, Sergei VP of MariaDB Server Engineering and security@mariadb.org On Mar 17, Lukas Javorsky wrote:
Hi,
In RHEL-9 we are deprecating, old SHA-1 and MD5 and that's why I want to ask you if there is any chance that upstream is going to change it, or we should do it downstream.
These algorithms are no longer considered as safe, so it may be a good thing to upgrade them.
AFAIK mariadb uses these algorithms in *mariadb* and *mariadb-connector-c.*
Also if you have no intention to change it, is there any chance you could help us somehow. Maybe point out what we should be aware of.
Please let me know what you think
Lukas
-- S pozdravom/ Best regards
Lukáš Javorský
Associate Software Engineer, Core service - Databases
Red Hat <https://www.redhat.com>
Purkyňova 115 (TPB-C)
612 00 Brno - Královo Pole
ljavorsk@redhat.com <https://www.redhat.com>
_______________________________________________ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~maria-discuss Post to : maria-discuss@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~maria-discuss More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
md5: extra/mariabackup/xbcloud.cc - old bit, however for old reasons used md5 as a checksum on a storage format. I'm think can be removed before RHEL9 In SQL there is a MD5 function, we can't just replace that as it will break user applications. sha1: also a SQL function. plugin/file_key_management/parser.cc is a digest on the keys, however if this is a point of attack you've lost already. I suspect this can be fixed. sha1 forms part of the mysql_native_password implementation, there's no known vulnerabilities in this due to its sha1 usage. https://mariadb.com/kb/en/authentication-plugin-ed25519/ is available, however not everything supports in on the client side. A mistake was also made (ref MDEV-19217), so a v2 might be needed. As things like php have mysqlnd and are more strictly tied to MySQL rather than MariaDB compatibility so adding MariaDB authentication plugins hasn't been accepted yet. On SQL functions, is this going to be a problem? or would a compile option that issues a user SQL warning if they are used be useful? On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 2:29 PM Eliezer Croitoru <ngtech1ltd@gmail.com> wrote:
Hey Sergei,
I cannot speak in the name of Lukas but I assume that he is talking about the payload signature of RPM files. Technically speaking SHA1 and MD5 can collide but only to specific file sizes. It's not that simple to create an RPM in a size of 10+ MB which will provide the exact same functionality ie DB which will include errors and/or other things.
I know it's pretty simple to upgrade the signature so I do not find any reason to not add a SHA256 sig.
All The Bests, Eliezer
---- Eliezer Croitoru Tech Support Mobile: +972-5-28704261 Email: ngtech1ltd@gmail.com Zoom: Coming soon
-----Original Message----- From: Maria-discuss <maria-discuss-bounces+ngtech1ltd= gmail.com@lists.launchpad.net> On Behalf Of Sergei Golubchik Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2021 5:24 PM To: Lukas Javorsky <ljavorsk@redhat.com> Cc: maria-discuss@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Maria-discuss] Is it possible to upgrade SHA-1 and MD5 algorithms in Mariadb-10.5?
Hi, Lukas!
What do you mean by "upgrade SHA-1 and MD5 algorithms in MariaDB" ?
Regards, Sergei VP of MariaDB Server Engineering and security@mariadb.org
On Mar 17, Lukas Javorsky wrote:
Hi,
In RHEL-9 we are deprecating, old SHA-1 and MD5 and that's why I want to ask you if there is any chance that upstream is going to change it, or we should do it downstream.
These algorithms are no longer considered as safe, so it may be a good thing to upgrade them.
AFAIK mariadb uses these algorithms in *mariadb* and *mariadb-connector-c.*
Also if you have no intention to change it, is there any chance you could help us somehow. Maybe point out what we should be aware of.
Please let me know what you think
Lukas
-- S pozdravom/ Best regards
Lukáš Javorský
Associate Software Engineer, Core service - Databases
Red Hat <https://www.redhat.com>
Purkyňova 115 (TPB-C)
612 00 Brno - Královo Pole
ljavorsk@redhat.com <https://www.redhat.com>
_______________________________________________ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~maria-discuss Post to : maria-discuss@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~maria-discuss More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
_______________________________________________ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~maria-discuss Post to : maria-discuss@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~maria-discuss More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Am 19.03.21 um 01:47 schrieb Daniel Black:
md5:
extra/mariabackup/xbcloud.cc - old bit, however for old reasons used md5 as a checksum on a storage format. I'm think can be removed before RHEL9
In SQL there is a MD5 function, we can't just replace that as it will break user applications.
sha1:
also a SQL function.
plugin/file_key_management/parser.cc is a digest on the keys, however if this is a point of attack you've lost already. I suspect this can be fixed.
sha1 forms part of the mysql_native_password implementation, there's no known vulnerabilities in this due to its sha1 usage.
https://mariadb.com/kb/en/authentication-plugin-ed25519/ <https://mariadb.com/kb/en/authentication-plugin-ed25519/> is available, however not everything supports in on the client side. A mistake was also made (ref MDEV-19217), so a v2 might be needed.
As things like php have mysqlnd and are more strictly tied to MySQL rather than MariaDB compatibility so adding MariaDB authentication plugins hasn't been accepted yet.
On SQL functions, is this going to be a problem? or would a compile option that issues a user SQL warning if they are used be useful?
sql functions for sure not matter in that context besides it would break existing usecases it also would require to change applications workign with that data *and* replace the hases with some others in *existing* data which is a no-go -------------- md5/sha1 are not evil on it's own - it's a matter of what they are used for, i have usecases where even MD4 is enough and i use it because it's simply faster it's unlikely in my md4 usecase making sure in autotests that html output out of frameworks didn't change to hit a hash-collision at the same time a single html attribute in a source code changed
What do you mean by "upgrade SHA-1 and MD5 algorithms in MariaDB" ?
Sorry for misleading terminology Sergei. What I meant was to change this algorithm to something newer, and most importantly more secure. There is an article <https://eprint.iacr.org/2020/014> about breaking the SHA-1 which is dated to 2020 and it explains the vulnerability of this algorithm. RHEL also adheres to Government standards like FIPS 140-2, which permits the use of SHA-1 for verification of legacy signatures. That may not be the case of mariadb, however, our goal is to eliminate every possible weakness of the algorithms used in packages. The main functions that are important for us is the password hashing, certificate fingerprinting in mariadb-connector-c which uses SHA-1 or MD5 Please let me know what you think. Lukas On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 1:48 AM Daniel Black <daniel@mariadb.org> wrote:
md5:
extra/mariabackup/xbcloud.cc - old bit, however for old reasons used md5 as a checksum on a storage format. I'm think can be removed before RHEL9
In SQL there is a MD5 function, we can't just replace that as it will break user applications.
sha1:
also a SQL function.
plugin/file_key_management/parser.cc is a digest on the keys, however if this is a point of attack you've lost already. I suspect this can be fixed.
sha1 forms part of the mysql_native_password implementation, there's no known vulnerabilities in this due to its sha1 usage.
https://mariadb.com/kb/en/authentication-plugin-ed25519/ is available, however not everything supports in on the client side. A mistake was also made (ref MDEV-19217), so a v2 might be needed.
As things like php have mysqlnd and are more strictly tied to MySQL rather than MariaDB compatibility so adding MariaDB authentication plugins hasn't been accepted yet.
On SQL functions, is this going to be a problem? or would a compile option that issues a user SQL warning if they are used be useful?
On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 2:29 PM Eliezer Croitoru <ngtech1ltd@gmail.com> wrote:
Hey Sergei,
I cannot speak in the name of Lukas but I assume that he is talking about the payload signature of RPM files. Technically speaking SHA1 and MD5 can collide but only to specific file sizes. It's not that simple to create an RPM in a size of 10+ MB which will provide the exact same functionality ie DB which will include errors and/or other things.
I know it's pretty simple to upgrade the signature so I do not find any reason to not add a SHA256 sig.
All The Bests, Eliezer
---- Eliezer Croitoru Tech Support Mobile: +972-5-28704261 Email: ngtech1ltd@gmail.com Zoom: Coming soon
-----Original Message----- From: Maria-discuss <maria-discuss-bounces+ngtech1ltd= gmail.com@lists.launchpad.net> On Behalf Of Sergei Golubchik Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2021 5:24 PM To: Lukas Javorsky <ljavorsk@redhat.com> Cc: maria-discuss@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Maria-discuss] Is it possible to upgrade SHA-1 and MD5 algorithms in Mariadb-10.5?
Hi, Lukas!
What do you mean by "upgrade SHA-1 and MD5 algorithms in MariaDB" ?
Regards, Sergei VP of MariaDB Server Engineering and security@mariadb.org
On Mar 17, Lukas Javorsky wrote:
Hi,
In RHEL-9 we are deprecating, old SHA-1 and MD5 and that's why I want to ask you if there is any chance that upstream is going to change it, or we should do it downstream.
These algorithms are no longer considered as safe, so it may be a good thing to upgrade them.
AFAIK mariadb uses these algorithms in *mariadb* and *mariadb-connector-c.*
Also if you have no intention to change it, is there any chance you could help us somehow. Maybe point out what we should be aware of.
Please let me know what you think
Lukas
-- S pozdravom/ Best regards
Lukáš Javorský
Associate Software Engineer, Core service - Databases
Red Hat <https://www.redhat.com>
Purkyňova 115 (TPB-C)
612 00 Brno - Královo Pole
ljavorsk@redhat.com <https://www.redhat.com>
_______________________________________________ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~maria-discuss Post to : maria-discuss@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~maria-discuss More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
_______________________________________________ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~maria-discuss Post to : maria-discuss@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~maria-discuss More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
-- S pozdravom/ Best regards Lukáš Javorský Associate Software Engineer, Core service - Databases Red Hat <https://www.redhat.com> Purkyňova 115 (TPB-C) 612 00 Brno - Královo Pole ljavorsk@redhat.com <https://www.redhat.com>
Hi, Lukas! On Mar 19, Lukas Javorsky wrote:
The main functions that are important for us is the password hashing, certificate fingerprinting in mariadb-connector-c which uses SHA-1 or MD5
Neither password hashing nor certificate fingerprinting, as far as I can see, use MD5. Password hashing, indeed, uses SHA-1. It's still secure, as far as I know, but I understand that you're likely just need a checkbox "no SHA-1 inside". Please, create a feature request at jira.mariadb.org for that (use type=task, project=MDEV). Certificate fingerprinting in mariadb-connector-c also uses SHA-1. If think it might make sense to allow other digest algorithms too. Please, create a feature request at jira.mariadb.org (project=CONC). Regards, Sergei VP of MariaDB Server Engineering and security@mariadb.org
Hi Sergei, I'm going to create the feature requests as you mentioned.
Neither password hashing nor certificate fingerprinting, as far as I can
see, use MD5.
Yes, I know, that's why I used "OR". I was just double checking. SHA-1 is used though. However, we don't just have the checkbox for this. The computing power is really skyrocketing every year, and we should be prepared rather than waiting for it. That's why we are doing extra steps to prevent any security issues that may be caused by weak algorithms. And since MariaDB is pretty big and widely used software we need to protect our customers against these types of attacks. I will try to provide as many information as I can in the following feature requests at jira.mariadb.com Thank you Lukas On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 2:11 PM Sergei Golubchik <serg@mariadb.org> wrote:
Hi, Lukas!
On Mar 19, Lukas Javorsky wrote:
The main functions that are important for us is the password hashing, certificate fingerprinting in mariadb-connector-c which uses SHA-1 or MD5
Neither password hashing nor certificate fingerprinting, as far as I can see, use MD5.
Password hashing, indeed, uses SHA-1. It's still secure, as far as I know, but I understand that you're likely just need a checkbox "no SHA-1 inside". Please, create a feature request at jira.mariadb.org for that (use type=task, project=MDEV).
Certificate fingerprinting in mariadb-connector-c also uses SHA-1. If think it might make sense to allow other digest algorithms too. Please, create a feature request at jira.mariadb.org (project=CONC).
Regards, Sergei VP of MariaDB Server Engineering and security@mariadb.org
-- S pozdravom/ Best regards Lukáš Javorský Associate Software Engineer, Core service - Databases Red Hat <https://www.redhat.com> Purkyňova 115 (TPB-C) 612 00 Brno - Královo Pole ljavorsk@redhat.com <https://www.redhat.com>
Hey Lukas, For clarity can you post the relevant jira issues that are relevant? I have these in my watch list: * https://jira.mariadb.org/browse/MDEV-12701 * https://jira.mariadb.org/browse/MDEV-12160 * https://jira.mariadb.org/browse/MDEV-16503 Thanks, Eliezer ---- Eliezer Croitoru Tech Support Mobile: +972-5-28704261 Email: ngtech1ltd@gmail.com <mailto:ngtech1ltd@gmail.com> Zoom: Coming soon From: Maria-discuss <maria-discuss-bounces+ngtech1ltd=gmail.com@lists.launchpad.net> On Behalf Of Lukas Javorsky Sent: Monday, March 22, 2021 1:28 PM To: Sergei Golubchik <serg@mariadb.org> Cc: maria-discuss@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Maria-discuss] Is it possible to upgrade SHA-1 and MD5 algorithms in Mariadb-10.5? Hi Sergei, I'm going to create the feature requests as you mentioned.
Neither password hashing nor certificate fingerprinting, as far as I can
see, use MD5.
Yes, I know, that's why I used "OR". I was just double checking. SHA-1 is used though. However, we don't just have the checkbox for this. The computing power is really skyrocketing every year, and we should be prepared rather than waiting for it. That's why we are doing extra steps to prevent any security issues that may be caused by weak algorithms. And since MariaDB is pretty big and widely used software we need to protect our customers against these types of attacks. I will try to provide as many information as I can in the following feature requests at jira.mariadb.com <http://jira.mariadb.com> Thank you Lukas On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 2:11 PM Sergei Golubchik <serg@mariadb.org <mailto:serg@mariadb.org> > wrote: Hi, Lukas! On Mar 19, Lukas Javorsky wrote:
The main functions that are important for us is the password hashing, certificate fingerprinting in mariadb-connector-c which uses SHA-1 or MD5
Neither password hashing nor certificate fingerprinting, as far as I can see, use MD5. Password hashing, indeed, uses SHA-1. It's still secure, as far as I know, but I understand that you're likely just need a checkbox "no SHA-1 inside". Please, create a feature request at jira.mariadb.org <http://jira.mariadb.org> for that (use type=task, project=MDEV). Certificate fingerprinting in mariadb-connector-c also uses SHA-1. If think it might make sense to allow other digest algorithms too. Please, create a feature request at jira.mariadb.org <http://jira.mariadb.org> (project=CONC). Regards, Sergei VP of MariaDB Server Engineering and security@mariadb.org <mailto:security@mariadb.org> -- S pozdravom/ Best regards Lukáš Javorský Associate Software Engineer, Core service - Databases <https://www.redhat.com> Red Hat Purkyňova 115 (TPB-C) 612 00 Brno - Královo Pole <mailto:ljavorsk@redhat.com> ljavorsk@redhat.com <https://www.redhat.com/>
participants (5)
-
Daniel Black -
Eliezer Croitoru -
Lukas Javorsky -
Reindl Harald -
Sergei Golubchik