Re: [Maria-developers] [All] MariaDB's best (download) month ever
Colin Charles byte@mariadb.com writes:
It's 17.09 today, and we've hit 50,160 total downloads (this number is considered company-internal, we don't share this number externally).
"company-internal"? What have you been smoking? Colin, you are supposed to be the community guy for crying out lout :-(
This is *completely*, utterly unacceptable.
MariaDB is a community project. We are about openness. We are about working together, all of us, to create a better world. We are *not* some individuals or companys playground.
So no, the community's usage numbers of its own project is not "internal", thank you very much.
So please cut out the crap already.
- Kristian.
I am with Kristian.
If you want non-company people to contribute then you need to make clear the boundaries between .com and .org. We all want the .com efforts to succeed but source code, docs, KB and download counts all seem like things that would be on the .org side.
On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Kristian Nielsen <knielsen@knielsen-hq.org
wrote:
Colin Charles byte@mariadb.com writes:
It's 17.09 today, and we've hit 50,160 total downloads (this number is considered company-internal, we don't share this number externally).
"company-internal"? What have you been smoking? Colin, you are supposed to be the community guy for crying out lout :-(
This is *completely*, utterly unacceptable.
MariaDB is a community project. We are about openness. We are about working together, all of us, to create a better world. We are *not* some individuals or companys playground.
So no, the community's usage numbers of its own project is not "internal", thank you very much.
So please cut out the crap already.
- Kristian.
_______________________________________________ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~maria-developers Post to : maria-developers@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~maria-developers More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Hi Mark,
On 18 Sep 2013, at 03:57, MARK CALLAGHAN mdcallag@gmail.com wrote:
I am with Kristian.
If you want non-company people to contribute then you need to make clear the boundaries between .com and .org. We all want the .com efforts to succeed but source code, docs, KB and download counts all seem like things that would be on the .org side.
We definitely want non-company people to contribute as MariaDB is an opensource project. This is a time of transition, so changes are happening albeit slowly. I myself am not quite sure where the .com / .org separation heads, but there is plenty of discussion and you can trust that I am on the side of the community and the .org world.
The bonus is that askmonty.org has been removed!
Stay tuned for more Mark.
cheers, -colin
On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Kristian Nielsen knielsen@knielsen-hq.org wrote: Colin Charles byte@mariadb.com writes:
It's 17.09 today, and we've hit 50,160 total downloads (this number is considered company-internal, we don't share this number externally).
"company-internal"? What have you been smoking? Colin, you are supposed to be the community guy for crying out lout :-(
This is *completely*, utterly unacceptable.
MariaDB is a community project. We are about openness. We are about working together, all of us, to create a better world. We are *not* some individuals or companys playground.
So no, the community's usage numbers of its own project is not "internal", thank you very much.
So please cut out the crap already.
- Kristian.
_______________________________________________ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~maria-developers Post to : maria-developers@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~maria-developers More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
-- Mark Callaghan mdcallag@gmail.com
-- Colin Charles, Chief Evangelist MariaDB | t: +6-012-204-3201 | Skype: colincharles
please, if mariadb got enterprise version, don't call it "mariadb enterprise" like mysql did, create another name... some users could tell "mariadb enterprise version is good, but mariadb community version isn't.", that happens to mysql here in Brazil at least about numbers, i don't think it's a problem for community, who care about download numbers? this don't make a good software :) and mariadb is very nice, better than mysql in many cases :) that's the point :)
2013/9/24 Colin Charles byte@mariadb.com:
Hi Mark,
On 18 Sep 2013, at 03:57, MARK CALLAGHAN mdcallag@gmail.com wrote:
I am with Kristian.
If you want non-company people to contribute then you need to make clear the boundaries between .com and .org. We all want the .com efforts to succeed but source code, docs, KB and download counts all seem like things that would be on the .org side.
We definitely want non-company people to contribute as MariaDB is an opensource project. This is a time of transition, so changes are happening albeit slowly. I myself am not quite sure where the .com / .org separation heads, but there is plenty of discussion and you can trust that I am on the side of the community and the .org world.
The bonus is that askmonty.org has been removed!
Stay tuned for more Mark.
cheers, -colin
On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Kristian Nielsen knielsen@knielsen-hq.org wrote: Colin Charles byte@mariadb.com writes:
It's 17.09 today, and we've hit 50,160 total downloads (this number is considered company-internal, we don't share this number externally).
"company-internal"? What have you been smoking? Colin, you are supposed to be the community guy for crying out lout :-(
This is *completely*, utterly unacceptable.
MariaDB is a community project. We are about openness. We are about working together, all of us, to create a better world. We are *not* some individuals or companys playground.
So no, the community's usage numbers of its own project is not "internal", thank you very much.
So please cut out the crap already.
- Kristian.
_______________________________________________ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~maria-developers Post to : maria-developers@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~maria-developers More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
-- Mark Callaghan mdcallag@gmail.com
-- Colin Charles, Chief Evangelist MariaDB | t: +6-012-204-3201 | Skype: colincharles
_______________________________________________ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~maria-developers Post to : maria-developers@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~maria-developers More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Hi Roberto,
On 25 Sep 2013, at 04:51, Roberto Spadim roberto@spadim.com.br wrote:
please, if mariadb got enterprise version, don't call it "mariadb enterprise" like mysql did, create another name... some users could tell "mariadb enterprise version is good, but mariadb community version isn't.", that happens to mysql here in Brazil at least about numbers, i don't think it's a problem for community, who care about download numbers? this don't make a good software :) and mariadb is very nice, better than mysql in many cases :) that's the point :)
The MariaDB Server is and always will be opensource.
I notice that mariadb.com talks about an Enterprise offering ("The new gold standard for database high availability" -- ?!?), which from my understanding has nothing to do with the MariaDB Server. Your feedback is important, and I tend to agree with you - it sure does sound confusing. I will pass this feedback on to the person responsible for this.
And with regards to your topic on download numbers -- note that they're hugely not a representation of our userbase. We cannot count users in distributions, large scale installs, etc. We also naturally see a huge discrepancy when it comes to opt-in statistics: http://mariadb.org/feedback_plugin/stats/server_count_by_month/
Anyway, thank you for your valuable feedback and lets all focus on making MariaDB better!
cheers, -colin
2013/9/24 Colin Charles byte@mariadb.com:
Hi Mark,
On 18 Sep 2013, at 03:57, MARK CALLAGHAN mdcallag@gmail.com wrote:
I am with Kristian.
If you want non-company people to contribute then you need to make clear the boundaries between .com and .org. We all want the .com efforts to succeed but source code, docs, KB and download counts all seem like things that would be on the .org side.
We definitely want non-company people to contribute as MariaDB is an opensource project. This is a time of transition, so changes are happening albeit slowly. I myself am not quite sure where the .com / .org separation heads, but there is plenty of discussion and you can trust that I am on the side of the community and the .org world.
The bonus is that askmonty.org has been removed!
Stay tuned for more Mark.
cheers, -colin
On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Kristian Nielsen knielsen@knielsen-hq.org wrote: Colin Charles byte@mariadb.com writes:
It's 17.09 today, and we've hit 50,160 total downloads (this number is considered company-internal, we don't share this number externally).
"company-internal"? What have you been smoking? Colin, you are supposed to be the community guy for crying out lout :-(
This is *completely*, utterly unacceptable.
MariaDB is a community project. We are about openness. We are about working together, all of us, to create a better world. We are *not* some individuals or companys playground.
So no, the community's usage numbers of its own project is not "internal", thank you very much.
So please cut out the crap already.
- Kristian.
_______________________________________________ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~maria-developers Post to : maria-developers@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~maria-developers More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
-- Mark Callaghan mdcallag@gmail.com
-- Colin Charles, Chief Evangelist MariaDB | t: +6-012-204-3201 | Skype: colincharles
_______________________________________________ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~maria-developers Post to : maria-developers@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~maria-developers More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
-- Roberto Spadim SPAEmpresarial
-- Colin Charles, Chief Evangelist MariaDB | t: +6-012-204-3201 | Skype: colincharles
Hi Colin! =) No problems :) thanks for the free space
Yes I read that Enterprise and didn't understood yet, maybe it's something about galera cluster? well don't need to answer, i will wait :)
Well i really like MariaDB and yes i will talk everything that i consider important even bad things :)
There's some guys talking in mariadb lists and outside the list about opengis, and mysql/mariadb isn't a rich database with gis, but it do some work (many times a good work), maybe could be interesting and it's a plan for mariadb 10.0 implement more about opengis, but let's wait what happens, developers what a big list of taks :) I see a good line to mariadb plans, that's important. Different from mysql, mariadb have features oriented to mariadb users, not to developers, users report what they need and can discuss at mail lists instead of a mysql pool about what community want and what devel team want to develop without a good discuss, I think mariadb have a good team and a nice community :) that's all we need :)
cheers, Roberto Spadim
2013/9/24 Colin Charles byte@mariadb.com:
Hi Roberto,
On 25 Sep 2013, at 04:51, Roberto Spadim roberto@spadim.com.br wrote:
please, if mariadb got enterprise version, don't call it "mariadb enterprise" like mysql did, create another name... some users could tell "mariadb enterprise version is good, but mariadb community version isn't.", that happens to mysql here in Brazil at least about numbers, i don't think it's a problem for community, who care about download numbers? this don't make a good software :) and mariadb is very nice, better than mysql in many cases :) that's the point :)
The MariaDB Server is and always will be opensource.
I notice that mariadb.com talks about an Enterprise offering ("The new gold standard for database high availability" -- ?!?), which from my understanding has nothing to do with the MariaDB Server. Your feedback is important, and I tend to agree with you - it sure does sound confusing. I will pass this feedback on to the person responsible for this.
And with regards to your topic on download numbers -- note that they're hugely not a representation of our userbase. We cannot count users in distributions, large scale installs, etc. We also naturally see a huge discrepancy when it comes to opt-in statistics: http://mariadb.org/feedback_plugin/stats/server_count_by_month/
Anyway, thank you for your valuable feedback and lets all focus on making MariaDB better!
cheers, -colin
2013/9/24 Colin Charles byte@mariadb.com:
Hi Mark,
On 18 Sep 2013, at 03:57, MARK CALLAGHAN mdcallag@gmail.com wrote:
I am with Kristian.
If you want non-company people to contribute then you need to make clear the boundaries between .com and .org. We all want the .com efforts to succeed but source code, docs, KB and download counts all seem like things that would be on the .org side.
We definitely want non-company people to contribute as MariaDB is an opensource project. This is a time of transition, so changes are happening albeit slowly. I myself am not quite sure where the .com / .org separation heads, but there is plenty of discussion and you can trust that I am on the side of the community and the .org world.
The bonus is that askmonty.org has been removed!
Stay tuned for more Mark.
cheers, -colin
On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Kristian Nielsen knielsen@knielsen-hq.org wrote: Colin Charles byte@mariadb.com writes:
It's 17.09 today, and we've hit 50,160 total downloads (this number is considered company-internal, we don't share this number externally).
"company-internal"? What have you been smoking? Colin, you are supposed to be the community guy for crying out lout :-(
This is *completely*, utterly unacceptable.
MariaDB is a community project. We are about openness. We are about working together, all of us, to create a better world. We are *not* some individuals or companys playground.
So no, the community's usage numbers of its own project is not "internal", thank you very much.
So please cut out the crap already.
- Kristian.
_______________________________________________ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~maria-developers Post to : maria-developers@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~maria-developers More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
-- Mark Callaghan mdcallag@gmail.com
-- Colin Charles, Chief Evangelist MariaDB | t: +6-012-204-3201 | Skype: colincharles
_______________________________________________ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~maria-developers Post to : maria-developers@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~maria-developers More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
-- Roberto Spadim SPAEmpresarial
-- Colin Charles, Chief Evangelist MariaDB | t: +6-012-204-3201 | Skype: colincharles
Congratulations on a notable milestone in any case!
On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 11:19 PM, Roberto Spadim roberto@spadim.com.brwrote:
Hi Colin! =) No problems :) thanks for the free space
Yes I read that Enterprise and didn't understood yet, maybe it's something about galera cluster? well don't need to answer, i will wait :)
Well i really like MariaDB and yes i will talk everything that i consider important even bad things :)
There's some guys talking in mariadb lists and outside the list about opengis, and mysql/mariadb isn't a rich database with gis, but it do some work (many times a good work), maybe could be interesting and it's a plan for mariadb 10.0 implement more about opengis, but let's wait what happens, developers what a big list of taks :) I see a good line to mariadb plans, that's important. Different from mysql, mariadb have features oriented to mariadb users, not to developers, users report what they need and can discuss at mail lists instead of a mysql pool about what community want and what devel team want to develop without a good discuss, I think mariadb have a good team and a nice community :) that's all we need :)
cheers, Roberto Spadim
2013/9/24 Colin Charles byte@mariadb.com:
Hi Roberto,
On 25 Sep 2013, at 04:51, Roberto Spadim roberto@spadim.com.br wrote:
please, if mariadb got enterprise version, don't call it "mariadb enterprise" like mysql did, create another name... some users could tell "mariadb enterprise version is good, but mariadb community version isn't.", that happens to mysql here in Brazil at least about numbers, i don't think it's a problem for community, who care about download numbers? this don't make a good software :) and mariadb is very nice, better than mysql in many cases :) that's the point :)
The MariaDB Server is and always will be opensource.
I notice that mariadb.com talks about an Enterprise offering ("The new
gold standard for database high availability" -- ?!?), which from my understanding has nothing to do with the MariaDB Server. Your feedback is important, and I tend to agree with you - it sure does sound confusing. I will pass this feedback on to the person responsible for this.
And with regards to your topic on download numbers -- note that they're
hugely not a representation of our userbase. We cannot count users in distributions, large scale installs, etc. We also naturally see a huge discrepancy when it comes to opt-in statistics:
http://mariadb.org/feedback_plugin/stats/server_count_by_month/
Anyway, thank you for your valuable feedback and lets all focus on
making MariaDB better!
cheers, -colin
2013/9/24 Colin Charles byte@mariadb.com:
Hi Mark,
On 18 Sep 2013, at 03:57, MARK CALLAGHAN mdcallag@gmail.com wrote:
I am with Kristian.
If you want non-company people to contribute then you need to make
clear the boundaries between .com and .org. We all want the .com efforts to succeed but source code, docs, KB and download counts all seem like things that would be on the .org side.
We definitely want non-company people to contribute as MariaDB is an
opensource project. This is a time of transition, so changes are happening albeit slowly. I myself am not quite sure where the .com / .org separation heads, but there is plenty of discussion and you can trust that I am on the side of the community and the .org world.
The bonus is that askmonty.org has been removed!
Stay tuned for more Mark.
cheers, -colin
On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Kristian Nielsen <
knielsen@knielsen-hq.org> wrote:
Colin Charles byte@mariadb.com writes:
It's 17.09 today, and we've hit 50,160 total downloads (this number
is
considered company-internal, we don't share this number externally).
"company-internal"? What have you been smoking? Colin, you are
supposed to be
the community guy for crying out lout :-(
This is *completely*, utterly unacceptable.
MariaDB is a community project. We are about openness. We are about
working
together, all of us, to create a better world. We are *not* some
individuals
or companys playground.
So no, the community's usage numbers of its own project is not
"internal",
thank you very much.
So please cut out the crap already.
- Kristian.
_______________________________________________ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~maria-developers Post to : maria-developers@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~maria-developers More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
-- Mark Callaghan mdcallag@gmail.com
-- Colin Charles, Chief Evangelist MariaDB | t: +6-012-204-3201 | Skype: colincharles
_______________________________________________ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~maria-developers Post to : maria-developers@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~maria-developers More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
-- Roberto Spadim SPAEmpresarial
-- Colin Charles, Chief Evangelist MariaDB | t: +6-012-204-3201 | Skype: colincharles
_______________________________________________ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~maria-developers Post to : maria-developers@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~maria-developers More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Hi Kristian,
On 18 Sep 2013, at 01:26, Kristian Nielsen knielsen@knielsen-hq.org wrote:
Colin Charles byte@mariadb.com writes:
It's 17.09 today, and we've hit 50,160 total downloads (this number is considered company-internal, we don't share this number externally).
"company-internal"? What have you been smoking? Colin, you are supposed to be the community guy for crying out lout :-(
This is *completely*, utterly unacceptable.
MariaDB is a community project. We are about openness. We are about working together, all of us, to create a better world. We are *not* some individuals or companys playground.
So no, the community's usage numbers of its own project is not "internal", thank you very much.
So please cut out the crap already.
I am the Chief Evangelist for MariaDB, and clearly a community advocate and always fight for the community when discussing things internally.
You are also absolutely right, that MariaDB is a community project. It is governed by the MariaDB Foundation. We have always had a strong ethic with being open. However, despite our strong ethic of being open, we have never published our download statistics. And maybe we should, but that is a discussion that needs to happen with all the stakeholders involved, from the company that pays your salary to the community of developers and users.
There is an utopian view of the MariaDB world and a realistic view of the MariaDB world. Let’s try to achieve a balance without being anyones playground. There are many changes happening in a rapid fashion, and the cowboy-style that we used to run at Monty Program is clearly changing.
So while we might want to celebrate the community’s usage numbers, they were set to be internal, like they have always been. Its like a Facebook keynote: they have a lot of MySQL servers, but they will never tell you the exact number of servers or instances that exist (swap Facebook with any large web property, Google, Twitter, etc.).
There are competitive reasons to keep numbers private sometime. We have analysts paying attention to MariaDB. We have the press paying attention to MariaDB. We have investors paying attention to SkySQL, a large backer of MariaDB.
MariaDB has been very open with some numbers (see What’s happening now - https://mariadb.com/kb/en/), but we have never in the history of the project shared download numbers.
Maybe it is time to start a discussion on what numbers do become public. Maybe its time to publish a press release at the start of next month. Maybe numbers should be shared amongst all members of the MariaDB Foundation. Maybe once the MariaDB Foundation is running at full speed, there is a Community Council, ala what Ubuntu does.
I don’t know the right answers to this, but one thing I can assure you is that I do my level best to keep things in the open. I would appreciate that when something is posted in private it remains that way. You might think its crap, but its unethical to share private emails in public.
Kristian, I have very high honours for you. Thank you for your occasional outbursts to remind us to keep it real.
cheers, -colin
-- Colin Charles, Chief Evangelist MariaDB | t: +6-012-204-3201 | Skype: colincharles
Define "we", or even define "MariaDB"? I am confused. At this point mariadb.org looks like a collection of links to #2 and #3 below: 1) mariadb.org / foundation 2) mariadb.com / skysql 3) askmonty.org
On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Colin Charles byte@mariadb.com wrote:
Hi Kristian,
On 18 Sep 2013, at 01:26, Kristian Nielsen knielsen@knielsen-hq.org wrote:
Colin Charles byte@mariadb.com writes:
It's 17.09 today, and we've hit 50,160 total downloads (this number is considered company-internal, we don't share this number externally).
"company-internal"? What have you been smoking? Colin, you are supposed
to be
the community guy for crying out lout :-(
This is *completely*, utterly unacceptable.
MariaDB is a community project. We are about openness. We are about
working
together, all of us, to create a better world. We are *not* some
individuals
or companys playground.
So no, the community's usage numbers of its own project is not
"internal",
thank you very much.
So please cut out the crap already.
I am the Chief Evangelist for MariaDB, and clearly a community advocate and always fight for the community when discussing things internally.
You are also absolutely right, that MariaDB is a community project. It is governed by the MariaDB Foundation. We have always had a strong ethic with being open. However, despite our strong ethic of being open, we have never published our download statistics. And maybe we should, but that is a discussion that needs to happen with all the stakeholders involved, from the company that pays your salary to the community of developers and users.
There is an utopian view of the MariaDB world and a realistic view of the MariaDB world. Let’s try to achieve a balance without being anyones playground. There are many changes happening in a rapid fashion, and the cowboy-style that we used to run at Monty Program is clearly changing.
So while we might want to celebrate the community’s usage numbers, they were set to be internal, like they have always been. Its like a Facebook keynote: they have a lot of MySQL servers, but they will never tell you the exact number of servers or instances that exist (swap Facebook with any large web property, Google, Twitter, etc.).
There are competitive reasons to keep numbers private sometime. We have analysts paying attention to MariaDB. We have the press paying attention to MariaDB. We have investors paying attention to SkySQL, a large backer of MariaDB.
MariaDB has been very open with some numbers (see What’s happening now - https://mariadb.com/kb/en/), but we have never in the history of the project shared download numbers.
Maybe it is time to start a discussion on what numbers do become public. Maybe its time to publish a press release at the start of next month. Maybe numbers should be shared amongst all members of the MariaDB Foundation. Maybe once the MariaDB Foundation is running at full speed, there is a Community Council, ala what Ubuntu does.
I don’t know the right answers to this, but one thing I can assure you is that I do my level best to keep things in the open. I would appreciate that when something is posted in private it remains that way. You might think its crap, but its unethical to share private emails in public.
Kristian, I have very high honours for you. Thank you for your occasional outbursts to remind us to keep it real.
cheers, -colin
-- Colin Charles, Chief Evangelist MariaDB | t: +6-012-204-3201 | Skype: colincharles
_______________________________________________ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~maria-developers Post to : maria-developers@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~maria-developers More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
On 25 Sep 2013, at 06:23, MARK CALLAGHAN mdcallag@gmail.com wrote:
Define "we", or even define "MariaDB"? I am confused. At this point mariadb.org looks like a collection of links to #2 and #3 below:
In the context of this email, "we" is Monty Program. Kristian and I both work there, long before we (MP) had to deal with the MariaDB Foundation and SkySQL.
1) mariadb.org / foundation 2) mariadb.com / skysql 3) askmonty.org
As to how we define MariaDB, I think this is worthy of a discussion. Bear with me for a moment. The tl;dr version of the following is such that mariadb.org has always been a collection of links to #2 and #3, with the only exception being #2 didn't exist before and was called montyprogram.com
Why do we have askmonty.org? Because when the company was announced as Monty Program, a domain squatter registered the domain. We could have paid the chap off, but we chose not to enrich a domain squatter, thus we began legal proceedings to get montyprogram.com. We finally got it, but at this point things like the downloads and the Knowledgebase were on askmonty.org. We had montyprogram.com which served to offer developer support, keep track of some news/press releases, but that was about it.
After a while, we decided we needed to have mariadb.org. Here we put the user stats collection, the explain analyzer, etc. Eventually downloads moved here. The knowledgebase still remained at askmonty.org. The blog moved from blog.montyprogram.com to blog.mariadb.org
With the merger of Monty Program with SkySQL, it seems that naturally montyprogram.com would have to be retired. Askmonty.org also got retired.
But for reasons beyond me (one might presume this has something to do with a branding strategy), there is now a new website called MariaDB.com (which as you allude to above, is SkySQL-owned).
So, mariadb.org is the foundation's website. mariadb.com belongs to skysql. Now, let's see what has changed from now, compared to a year ago? * the Knowledgebase seems to have a new URL - kb.askmonty.org is now https://mariadb.com/kb/en/
What hasn't changed? The downloads. The blog.
In fact, mariadb.org hasn't changed much at all. It still has links pointing to askmonty.org and montyprogram.com. As I do not represent the Foundation, it is clear this is something that has to be brought up to the attention of Simon Phipps, as CEO of the Foundation (https://mariadb.org/en/foundation/).
So the net conclusion? - We've lost montyprogram.com and askmonty.org (this is good!) - We've gained mariadb.com (with a potentially confusing offering that has a vague description) - The knowledgebase from askmonty.org (the only thing that remained there, besides the old worklog tool and wiki) has moved to mariadb.com - We clearly need to improve the content on mariadb.org - We need to get rid of/merge content of worklog: http://worklog.askmonty.org/worklog/
Does this help answer your questions? Also, I'm not sure if these discussions are meant to be on maria-developers, instead of maria-discuss
cheers, -colin
On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Colin Charles byte@mariadb.com wrote: Hi Kristian,
On 18 Sep 2013, at 01:26, Kristian Nielsen knielsen@knielsen-hq.org wrote:
Colin Charles byte@mariadb.com writes:
It's 17.09 today, and we've hit 50,160 total downloads (this number is considered company-internal, we don't share this number externally).
"company-internal"? What have you been smoking? Colin, you are supposed to be the community guy for crying out lout :-(
This is *completely*, utterly unacceptable.
MariaDB is a community project. We are about openness. We are about working together, all of us, to create a better world. We are *not* some individuals or companys playground.
So no, the community's usage numbers of its own project is not "internal", thank you very much.
So please cut out the crap already.
I am the Chief Evangelist for MariaDB, and clearly a community advocate and always fight for the community when discussing things internally.
You are also absolutely right, that MariaDB is a community project. It is governed by the MariaDB Foundation. We have always had a strong ethic with being open. However, despite our strong ethic of being open, we have never published our download statistics. And maybe we should, but that is a discussion that needs to happen with all the stakeholders involved, from the company that pays your salary to the community of developers and users.
There is an utopian view of the MariaDB world and a realistic view of the MariaDB world. Let’s try to achieve a balance without being anyones playground. There are many changes happening in a rapid fashion, and the cowboy-style that we used to run at Monty Program is clearly changing.
So while we might want to celebrate the community’s usage numbers, they were set to be internal, like they have always been. Its like a Facebook keynote: they have a lot of MySQL servers, but they will never tell you the exact number of servers or instances that exist (swap Facebook with any large web property, Google, Twitter, etc.).
There are competitive reasons to keep numbers private sometime. We have analysts paying attention to MariaDB. We have the press paying attention to MariaDB. We have investors paying attention to SkySQL, a large backer of MariaDB.
MariaDB has been very open with some numbers (see What’s happening now - https://mariadb.com/kb/en/), but we have never in the history of the project shared download numbers.
Maybe it is time to start a discussion on what numbers do become public. Maybe its time to publish a press release at the start of next month. Maybe numbers should be shared amongst all members of the MariaDB Foundation. Maybe once the MariaDB Foundation is running at full speed, there is a Community Council, ala what Ubuntu does.
I don’t know the right answers to this, but one thing I can assure you is that I do my level best to keep things in the open. I would appreciate that when something is posted in private it remains that way. You might think its crap, but its unethical to share private emails in public.
Kristian, I have very high honours for you. Thank you for your occasional outbursts to remind us to keep it real.
cheers, -colin
-- Colin Charles, Chief Evangelist MariaDB | t: +6-012-204-3201 | Skype: colincharles
_______________________________________________ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~maria-developers Post to : maria-developers@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~maria-developers More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
-- Mark Callaghan mdcallag@gmail.com
-- Colin Charles, Chief Evangelist MariaDB | t: +6-012-204-3201 | Skype: colincharles
Colin,
I appreciate your candor with not knowing what mariadb.com is up to, however I find it somewhat ironic that this email came from byte@* mariadb.com*. There really needs to be some clarifications about what the future of all of this is, especially w.r.t. SkySQL's commercial intentions and their relationship to MariaDB (foundation, product, etc.).
The mariadb.com site also, confusingly, says "MariaDB.com is operated by SkySQL and will become the new home for products and services related to MariaDB." and at the bottom says "2013 © MariaDB". What do these instances of "MariaDB" refer to -- a commercial entity? the product? the foundation? It then goes on to immediately tout "MariaDB Enterprise" so it's really very confusing.
What are the relationships between the commercial entities in question exactly?
Really, I think the point is: If myself, Mark, Colin, and Kristian are all confused, there is just about zero chance that any regular users are clear on it.
Regards,
Jeremy
On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 1:39 AM, Colin Charles byte@mariadb.com wrote:
On 25 Sep 2013, at 06:23, MARK CALLAGHAN mdcallag@gmail.com wrote:
Define "we", or even define "MariaDB"? I am confused. At this point
mariadb.org looks like a collection of links to #2 and #3 below:
In the context of this email, "we" is Monty Program. Kristian and I both work there, long before we (MP) had to deal with the MariaDB Foundation and SkySQL.
1) mariadb.org / foundation 2) mariadb.com / skysql 3) askmonty.org
As to how we define MariaDB, I think this is worthy of a discussion. Bear with me for a moment. The tl;dr version of the following is such that mariadb.org has always been a collection of links to #2 and #3, with the only exception being #2 didn't exist before and was called montyprogram.com
Why do we have askmonty.org? Because when the company was announced as Monty Program, a domain squatter registered the domain. We could have paid the chap off, but we chose not to enrich a domain squatter, thus we began legal proceedings to get montyprogram.com. We finally got it, but at this point things like the downloads and the Knowledgebase were on askmonty.org. We had montyprogram.com which served to offer developer support, keep track of some news/press releases, but that was about it.
After a while, we decided we needed to have mariadb.org. Here we put the user stats collection, the explain analyzer, etc. Eventually downloads moved here. The knowledgebase still remained at askmonty.org. The blog moved from blog.montyprogram.com to blog.mariadb.org
With the merger of Monty Program with SkySQL, it seems that naturally montyprogram.com would have to be retired. Askmonty.org also got retired.
But for reasons beyond me (one might presume this has something to do with a branding strategy), there is now a new website called MariaDB.com (which as you allude to above, is SkySQL-owned).
So, mariadb.org is the foundation's website. mariadb.com belongs to skysql. Now, let's see what has changed from now, compared to a year ago? * the Knowledgebase seems to have a new URL - kb.askmonty.org is now https://mariadb.com/kb/en/
What hasn't changed? The downloads. The blog.
In fact, mariadb.org hasn't changed much at all. It still has links pointing to askmonty.org and montyprogram.com. As I do not represent the Foundation, it is clear this is something that has to be brought up to the attention of Simon Phipps, as CEO of the Foundation ( https://mariadb.org/en/foundation/).
So the net conclusion? - We've lost montyprogram.com and askmonty.org (this is good!) - We've gained mariadb.com (with a potentially confusing offering that has a vague description) - The knowledgebase from askmonty.org (the only thing that remained there, besides the old worklog tool and wiki) has moved to mariadb.com - We clearly need to improve the content on mariadb.org - We need to get rid of/merge content of worklog: http://worklog.askmonty.org/worklog/
Does this help answer your questions? Also, I'm not sure if these discussions are meant to be on maria-developers, instead of maria-discuss
cheers, -colin
On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Colin Charles byte@mariadb.com wrote: Hi Kristian,
On 18 Sep 2013, at 01:26, Kristian Nielsen knielsen@knielsen-hq.org
wrote:
Colin Charles byte@mariadb.com writes:
It's 17.09 today, and we've hit 50,160 total downloads (this number is considered company-internal, we don't share this number externally).
"company-internal"? What have you been smoking? Colin, you are
supposed to be
the community guy for crying out lout :-(
This is *completely*, utterly unacceptable.
MariaDB is a community project. We are about openness. We are about
working
together, all of us, to create a better world. We are *not* some
individuals
or companys playground.
So no, the community's usage numbers of its own project is not
"internal",
thank you very much.
So please cut out the crap already.
I am the Chief Evangelist for MariaDB, and clearly a community advocate
and always fight for the community when discussing things internally.
You are also absolutely right, that MariaDB is a community project. It
is governed by the MariaDB Foundation. We have always had a strong ethic with being open. However, despite our strong ethic of being open, we have never published our download statistics. And maybe we should, but that is a discussion that needs to happen with all the stakeholders involved, from the company that pays your salary to the community of developers and users.
There is an utopian view of the MariaDB world and a realistic view of
the MariaDB world. Let’s try to achieve a balance without being anyones playground. There are many changes happening in a rapid fashion, and the cowboy-style that we used to run at Monty Program is clearly changing.
So while we might want to celebrate the community’s usage numbers, they
were set to be internal, like they have always been. Its like a Facebook keynote: they have a lot of MySQL servers, but they will never tell you the exact number of servers or instances that exist (swap Facebook with any large web property, Google, Twitter, etc.).
There are competitive reasons to keep numbers private sometime. We have
analysts paying attention to MariaDB. We have the press paying attention to MariaDB. We have investors paying attention to SkySQL, a large backer of MariaDB.
MariaDB has been very open with some numbers (see What’s happening now -
https://mariadb.com/kb/en/), but we have never in the history of the project shared download numbers.
Maybe it is time to start a discussion on what numbers do become public.
Maybe its time to publish a press release at the start of next month. Maybe numbers should be shared amongst all members of the MariaDB Foundation. Maybe once the MariaDB Foundation is running at full speed, there is a Community Council, ala what Ubuntu does.
I don’t know the right answers to this, but one thing I can assure you
is that I do my level best to keep things in the open. I would appreciate that when something is posted in private it remains that way. You might think its crap, but its unethical to share private emails in public.
Kristian, I have very high honours for you. Thank you for your
occasional outbursts to remind us to keep it real.
cheers, -colin
-- Colin Charles, Chief Evangelist MariaDB | t: +6-012-204-3201 | Skype: colincharles
_______________________________________________ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~maria-developers Post to : maria-developers@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~maria-developers More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
-- Mark Callaghan mdcallag@gmail.com
-- Colin Charles, Chief Evangelist MariaDB | t: +6-012-204-3201 | Skype: colincharles
_______________________________________________ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~maria-developers Post to : maria-developers@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~maria-developers More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Hi Jeremy,
On 28 Sep 2013, at 03:59, Jeremy Cole jeremycole@google.com wrote:
I appreciate your candor with not knowing what mariadb.com is up to, however I find it somewhat ironic that this email came from byte@mariadb.com. There really needs to be some clarifications about what the future of all of this is, especially w.r.t. SkySQL's commercial intentions and their relationship to MariaDB (foundation, product, etc.).
I traded in my @montyprogram.com email address which you might have been familiar with on 28 July 2013 for a @mariadb.com email address. There was nothing on that site until very recently. Notice how I don't have a @skysql.com email address? I traded in my .signature file in September, much against anyone's wishes of individuality.
But you and everyone else is absolutely right: clarification & distinction & clear future of what is SkySQL's commercial intentions and the relationship to MariaDB (the foundation, the product, etc.). Top on my question list is What is MariaDB - it means many things to many people
The mariadb.com site also, confusingly, says "MariaDB.com is operated by SkySQL and will become the new home for products and services related to MariaDB." and at the bottom says "2013 © MariaDB". What do these instances of "MariaDB" refer to -- a commercial entity? the product? the foundation? It then goes on to immediately tout "MariaDB Enterprise" so it's really very confusing.
I don't know how that got thru. Thanks for the pointer, it is now added as an item of discussion.
What are the relationships between the commercial entities in question exactly?
When I get a more deterministic answer, I will share it with maria-discuss
Really, I think the point is: If myself, Mark, Colin, and Kristian are all confused, there is just about zero chance that any regular users are clear on it.
You are right. And its nothing like great discussion on maria-developers/maria-discuss on this issue as well - its clear there is confusion and its clear this needs fixing. Please bear with me as I need some time to discuss this to find suitable discussion points and answers and I will ensure that it comes to maria-discuss within 1-2 weeks.
cheers, -colin
-- Colin Charles, Chief Evangelist MariaDB | t: +6-012-204-3201 | Skype: colincharles
participants (6)
-
Colin Charles -
Jeremy Cole -
Kristian Nielsen -
MARK CALLAGHAN -
Michael Felt -
Roberto Spadim